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Atlantic League; Unfair ACC Tourneys
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Post: #41
 
ok Paul-you didnt have to bring us into it-no Dukie bashed yall.
07-12-2002 10:34 AM
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TIGERFREAK
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Post: #42
 
Paul was brutaly honest.
07-12-2002 08:28 PM
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Doc NoleCat
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Post: #43
 
The original poster did have one legit point, believe it or not. It is a huge advantage to the NC schools to have the ACC basketball tourney in NC (almost) every year. The location should be rotated around the states that have ACC schools.
07-14-2002 01:20 PM
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Terpy
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Post: #44
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Doc NoleCat:
The original poster did have one legit point, believe it or not. It is a huge advantage to the NC schools to have the ACC basketball tourney in NC (almost) every year. The location should be rotated around the states that have ACC schools.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, to tell you the truth I dont have any problem with the tourney being in NC nearly every year, after all, nearly half the schools are in North Carolina...it makes sense to me...
07-14-2002 05:01 PM
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JD Heel
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Post: #45
 
In Greensboro or Charlotte, there are going to be a lot of mixed fans for all the NC ACC schools. Thus, there is no clear advantage for any NC team, fan-wise. There are also a lot of fans of other ACC teams in North Carolina.

Also, NC is basically in the middle of all the ACC schools, and thus not too far away for any fans to travel.

I think the ACC is doing the right thing by moving it to other venues every now and then (Atlanta, for example) but keeping it in NC most of the time....

-JD
07-14-2002 05:20 PM
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Guest
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Post: #46
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Doc NoleCat:
The original poster did have one legit point, believe it or not. It is a huge advantage to the NC schools to have the ACC basketball tourney in NC (almost) every year. The location should be rotated around the states that have ACC schools.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the last ACC Tournament held outside the state of North Caroina was in Atlanta, Georgia

what was the final? Duke defeated North Carolina 79-53. being out of the state really hurt the Big Four's chances!
07-14-2002 05:22 PM
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Doc NoleCat
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Post: #47
 
Hmm, interesting responses. Terpy wrote, in part, "nearly half the schools are in North Carolina...it makes sense to me..."
True, but it doesn't address the question of home-court advantage. It's equally true that MORE than half the schools AREN'T in NC. Majority rules, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

JD Heel noted, "In Greensboro or Charlotte, there are going to be a lot of mixed fans for all the NC ACC schools. Thus, there is no clear advantage for any NC team, fan-wise. There are also a lot of fans of other ACC teams in North Carolina."
When the NC teams play each other, sure. When not, it's pretty much the same as when Duke played FSU in Jacksonville 3 seasons ago -- that is, there weren't enough Blue Devil fans to fill the press box, let alone a home team's section. (That was, allegedly, a Duke "home" game. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

And Laettner's Legacy retorted, "the last ACC Tournament held outside the state of North Caroina was in Atlanta, Georgia... what was the final? Duke defeated North Carolina 79-53. being out of the state really hurt the Big Four's chances!"

According to the Official ACC site, there have been 40 ACC tourneys played in NC and won by current ACC teams. 4 of them were won by non-NC schools. That's 10%. There have been 7 tourneys played outside NC. Of those, 2 were won by non-NC schools. That's 29%, rounded to the nearest whole percentage. Reasoning from entire histories is always sounder than reasoning from isolated and non-random instances. <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/angel.gif" />

BTW, who are the "Big Four"? UNC's taken 14 tourney titles, Duke 13, and NC St. 10. No one else is even close...
07-14-2002 06:43 PM
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JD Heel
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Post: #48
 
I'll gladly concede that last point to you. <img border="0" alt="[laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />

You'd be surprised, though, at how many Clemson, Virginia, etc. fans there are in NC. I'd say that there are more (non-NC team) ACC fans in North Carolina than any other ACC state. If you go up to D.C., then most of the fans will be Maryland and Virginia. If you go down to Orlando or somewhere, then most of the fans will be FSU and Tech, probably.

Also, you'd be surprised at the homecourt advantage that teams like UNC don't get in the ACC tourney. In the past, in places like Greensboro we always got the ABC ("Anybody but Carolina") crowd. Thus, you have a lot of ACC fans pulling against Carolina. The same probably happens with dook now.

Also, with the ACC tournament, each team has an equal allotment of tickets. As long as each team has fan interest and brings enough fans to fill their allotment, you'll never have an uneven supply of fans for a certain number of teams....

I still think it's a good idea to get the tourney out of NC every now and then, but it's a great place for it to be most of the time as well.

-JD
07-14-2002 08:50 PM
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BlueDevil
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Post: #49
 
terpy, you realize you don't share the opinions of Gary Williams or any other terp fans, right?

jd heel, you're a heel fan in Charlotte and you want the ACC tourney to be in NC most of the time, you're kidding right? Since the UNC types like to whine about DC and Tampa holding 20,000 instead of 23,000 like Charlotte, shouldn't they favor holding ACC tourneys every year in nearby Atlanta which drew over 40,000 recently? ACC has to make the tourney as convenient and profitable as possible, so that tickets are available to the most people to get the most donations as well as ticket revenue, plus Georgia Dome prepares teams for final four and other NCAA venues. It's all about maximizing revenue and attendance, right?

Bottom line is 41 of 48 ACC tourneys have been in NC, and 41 of 48 have been won by NC teams. That's not a coincidence. The worst part of that, including holding the first 13 in Raleigh in Reynolds Coliseum, is that it built up the 3 triangle programs at the expense of the other 5 basketball programs in the ACC. The other 5 have dominated ACC football winning over 20 of the last ACC football titles in a row, why wouldn't they also dominate basketball since the NC teams have to divide local recruits with other ACC schools while others do not? UNC and NCSU have won far more ACC tourneys than all 7 others including Duke combined, Georgia Dome would be a good permanent location for ACC tourney until realignment takes place.

Do the ACC fans posting here living in PA, Brooklyn, south Florida, etc., want to see their teams on TV or not?

Does everyone agree that replacing NCSU, Wake, and Clemson, with Syracuse, BC, Miami, and Penn State, would create a much better conference in every way, football, basketball, overall sports, rivalries, fun, academics, prestige, recruiting, fan base, TV, exposure, revenue, etc., one that is best in the country in every way by far instead of 2nd of 2 in southeast?

<small>[ July 15, 2002, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: BlueDevil ]</small>
07-14-2002 10:54 PM
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Big Pimpin Deac
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Post: #50
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BlueDevil:


Does everyone agree that replacing NCSU, Wake, and Clemson, with Syracuse, BC, Miami, and Penn State, would create a much better conference in every way, football, basketball, overall sports, rivalries, fun, academics, prestige, recruiting, fan base, TV, exposure, revenue, etc., one that is best in the country in every way by far instead of 2nd of 2 in southeast?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No one agree with you, Blue Balls. You are a drooling retard.
Basketball. Nope. Wake and State are better than three and on par with Sorryexcuse.
Football. Nope. I recall recently State beating the living piss out of Sorryexcuse twice. Not to mention, Penn State blows now. BC, what the f*ck have they ever won?
Overall sports. Who knows or cares?
Rivalries. Already have great ones.
Fun. Please explain this one to me. I know I've had fun at all three places.
Academics. Wake beats them all.
Prestige. Try again.
07-15-2002 08:06 AM
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JD Heel
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Post: #51
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since the UNC types like to whine about DC and Tampa holding 20,000 instead of 23,000 like Charlotte, shouldn't they favor holding ACC tourneys every year in nearby Atlanta which drew over 40,000 recently?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BlueDevil: Please don't speak for me when mentioning your perception of Carolina fans. Just because you may know a couple of UNC fans who believe one thing doesn't mean that me -- or all the other ones -- agree.

For the record, I don't agree with you that the ACC tournament should be moved to bigger venues merely to maximize profit. I think the tourney loses some of its excitement in domes -- where the players always struggle shooting and where fans are nowhere near the court. Give me the 20,000 places like Tampa and Washington (every once in awhile) and I'll be happy. But, I like to see the tournament in Charlotte and Greensboro most of the time for the reasons I stated above. (And there is some bias toward Charlotte in that, sure -- but I've never been to an ACC tournament in Charlotte.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The other 5 have dominated ACC football winning over 20 of the last ACC football titles in a row, why wouldn't they also dominate basketball since the NC teams have to divide local recruits with other ACC schools while others do not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your logic astounds me. There are a few coaches involved here that make a big difference -- Dean Smith, Everett Case, and Mike Krzyzewski, to name a few. And the fact of the matter is that the NC schools have outrecruited the other ACC institutions in the past despite what you mentioned. Frank Maguire was forced to go up to New York to do it, but he did -- and re-established a pipeline from NY.

And once again, let me explain to you that many of the titles UNC has won has been in spite of the crowds, which are roughly 8/9 of ABCers pulling against the Heels. I don't know how it was back in the day, but I guarantee you that UNC didn't have a great homecourt advantage at Reynolds either.

And, why is it that NC teams have also dominated the regular seasons throughout most of the ACC's history? I mean, all the games weren't played in NC, were they? It's not as if they all stunk up the regular season... and then magically played over their heads in the ACC tourney because they had the "homecourt advantage."

The ACC is fine as it is.

-JD

<small>[ July 15, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: JD Heel ]</small>
07-15-2002 08:49 AM
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ClemTiger
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Post: #52
 
I have some major problems with your post Blue Devil. First of all Boston College is a horrible choice to add to the ACC. Clemson is an overall better school espically when it comes to athletics.

For all the writing you did Blue Devil you ruined the whole thing by making a number of uncredible statements. Like:
"Duke which is the most nationally televised sports program pro or college in the nation or world" Other than basketball what other Duke sports are televised, it's not football.
"...schools like Wake, Clemson, and NCSU, which are mediocre to horrendous in everything and have small fan bases and second or worse tier status among recruits and no TV draw..."

First of all at what point does Clemson have a small fan base? I'm assuming a higher attendance at sporting events means a higher fan base. Here are some 2001 attendance numbers. (Where Clemson ranked nationally and in the ACC)
Football: 15 and 2
Baseball: 18 and 1
Soccer: 7 and 2
W. Basketball: 30 and 3
M. Basketball: 59 and 6 Our basketball team finished 6th in the ACC yet we're the laughing stock of the ACC.

"...second or worse tier status among recruits..."
more numbers. These are team rankings for Football recruiting.
2002 2001
5 FSU 1 FSU
7 Virginia 10 CLEMSON
22 CLEMSON 22 NCState
Clemson also had THREE of our incoming baseball recruits picked in the FIRST round of the MLB draft. Clemson is not a second or worse tier status in recruiting.

"...mediocre to horrendous in everything..."
Lets use the Sears Directors Cup 2001-2002 which ranks schools by overall atheletic performance to disprove this one.
4 UNC
26 Clemson
27 Virginia
30 Duke
Yes that's right Clemson had the 2nd best year sports wise in the ACC. Also ahead of Duke.

"...no TV draw..."
4 upcoming Football games nationally televised (ESPN). Plus whichever bowl game we go to, hopefully.

Blue Devil if you're going to make these claims at least have some facts to back it up. Go Tigers, Blue Devils suck, Boston College Sucks.
07-15-2002 03:57 PM
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BlueDevil
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Post: #53
 
Football? Miami has 5 football national titles, Penn State has titles too and biggest school and stadium in east seating over 100,000, BC football has great tradition with Flutie, Romanowski, Coughlin, etc., is the biggest college draw in all of New England and will be consistently good with their new coach who was at UVA while it was winning over a dozen straight 7 win seasons and recruits well, Syracuse has a national title, only college dome, ESPN's greatest player ever in Jim Brown, and 15 straight winning seasons and counting.

ACC only has 2 or 3 good basketball programs, Duke, UMD, UNC. College basketball changed completely in the mid 80s with shot clock, 3 point line, and 64 team NCAA field, before that there were games with final scores like 7-6 and underdogs like Villanova or NCSU having a chance in postseason, no more. NCSU may have benefitted from having first 13 ACC tourneys in Raleigh in Reynolds Coliseum, enrolling 400 SAT bball morons, and cheating with Valvano, but haven't done squat recently with 1 meaningless NCAA bid in over 10 years. The only ACC teams to even make final four since then have been Duke, UNC, UMD, and GT. How many NCAA tourney bids have NCSU and Clemson combined gotten in the last 10 years, 1? Wake is just a terrible sports school period, just one final four from 40 years ago, bad overall sports, and football has worst alltime winning percentage of all 117 div.IA schools, dead last. Syracuse has the biggest basketball stadium in the world and so they will always hire great coaches in order to sell tickets, played in 96 title game, recruits well, and has been consistently good with Boeheim. Miami is building an on campus arena but has already been consistently good with Leonard Hamilton and Perry Clark. BC beat #1 UNC in 94 in NCAAA, is on the rise with the Conte Crazies and recent NCAA appearances, lots of potential as the only bball school plus good academics in the best college town in the world. Penn State beat ACC cochamp UNC in 2001 NCAA tourney, and as the biggest school in the east has tremendous potential with membership in the best basketball league like the Atlantic League, being in midwestern football oriented Big 10 has held them back as PA recruits has gone to ACC, Big East, even Atlantic 10 schools. The extra revenue from A League membership would allow these schools to hire even better coaches and be even better in basketball, football, and everything else.

Overall sports, Penn State is often top 5 in Sears Cup with titles in all kinds of sports like womens volleyball and football, Syracuse has best lacrosse national champs in nation, BC has best hockey national champs, Miami national champs in football and baseball. A League would have best teams and national champs of every major US sport, football, basketball, soccer, baseball, hockey, lacrosse, etc.

Academics, NCSU and Clemson are at the bottom of the ACC in academics and Wake is mediocre behind Duke, UNC, UVA, with GT having higher SATs as well. Penn State and BC are top 50 US News and Syracuse has been as well recently, Miami has great potential as small school and the only one anyone knows about in one of the most exciting cities in the world.

The only great ACC rivalry is Duke-UNC with Duke-UMD coming on recently. A League would have those plus many more nationally significant rivalries, FSU-Miami, FSU-PSU, PSU-UMD-UVA-UNC-GT-FSU, Miami-Syracuse-BC-Duke, etc.

Fun, Penn State is a top 10 party and tailgating school, Miami is extremely fun, Boston is the best college town, Syracuse fans have fun all year long with 15 straight winning seasons in fball, great basketball, and national lacrosse champs. Wake, Clemson, and NCSU, are the least fun ACC schools, 2 in the middle of nowhere.

Prestige, ACC is clearly 2nd best of 2 conferences in southeast plus Clemson has 15 NCAA violations every year. Atlantic League would be not only best in the nation by far overall, but best in every individual sport and way, football, basketball, overall sports, rivalries, fun, academics, prestige, recruiting, fan base, exposure, revenue, etc., doubling or tripling everything.

Noticed you didn't mention revenue, obviously doubling or tripling TV region while dropping noncontributors like Wake, NCSU, and Clemson, would lead to tens of millions more per school. That's the reason conferences realign, plus all the reasons above and more.
07-15-2002 09:08 PM
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BlueDevil
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Post: #54
 
If having ACC tourney in NC every year was fair, obviously nobody would bother moving it to DC or Tampa. Fact is, 41 of 48 have been in NC, and 41 of 48 have been won by NC schools. Even NC newspapers have written about all the unfair aspects I mentioned about ACC tourney location, including NC programs being built up at the expense of others because first 13 ACC tourneys were in Raleigh and first 22 were in NC with carolina schools winning 21 of 22. Obviously a league with BC, Syracuse, Penn State, UMD, UVA, Duke, UNC, GT, and FSU, moving tourney between NJ/NYC, DC, Charlotte, and St. Petersburg, is more fair than what the ACC has done, plus having A League refs come from all over east coast and nation would be preferable to having ACC refs born, raised, and living in NC along with HQ and administrators. Playing in domes is good preparation for final fours.

Counting all sports, Duke is more nationally televised than any college or pro sports organization in the nation or world. Conference revenue comes from TV contracts, attendance affects school revenue but not conference revenue, and Clemson, NCSU, and Wake have little to no TV draw, nationally or otherwise. Recruits pick schools for a combination of academics, athletics, location, campus, students, diversity, etc. Over the long term, Duke, UNC, and UVA, are the best ACC schools and overall athletic programs according to US News, Sears Cup, etc., they even have the best campuses, and get the best recruits. Basketball, Duke, UNC, UMD, get the best recruits, in football, FSU, UVA, UNC, get the best, everyone else is mediocre to terrible. GT has a football national title and bball final four in 90s and Atlanta location, UMD has best bball and fball teams in ACC last year plus ACC's 2 biggest TV markets, FSU is best football and party school in nation, UNC has great basketball and overall sports, UVA has great academics and overall sports and fball recruiting, Duke has best basketball and academics and great overall sports, etc.

Clemson may be better than NCSU and Wake in sports but it's not a national power in football, basketball, or overall sports, and worst in ACC in academics, diversity, location, etc., and has 15 NCAA violations every year. BC has much better academics and basketball, football is on the rise and finished top 25 unlike Clemson, plus they won hockey national title going to 4 straight final fours, the real benefit of BC is it's the only school in the nation with a whole huge region New England all to itself and that means great recruiting territory and much more TV coverage and revenue for all Atlantic League schools.
07-15-2002 09:46 PM
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JD Heel
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Post: #55
 
Well gee, when you put it that way... "Come on down Penn State, BC, Miami, et al -- you're the next members of the ACC!"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

-JD
07-15-2002 11:09 PM
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Big Pimpin Deac
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Post: #56
 
Now I've seen it all. Blue Balls preaching about academics. First of all, every school in the ACC is academically superior to the school you went to, which was probably no where. Second, let us see your SAT statistics that you so proudly proclaim to know. You might want to get your facts straight before you spew non-sense. You sound like some redneck at the local community college bragging that his school's SAT scores are higher than Princeton's. Last, you are cordially invited to the LK/BPD tailgate at Groves Stadium this season for the game of your choice. We are very open minded people and would love to hear your rhetoric in person.
07-16-2002 09:14 AM
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BlueDevil
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Post: #57
 
I graduated from Duke, which would rather not be associated with mediocre to horrendous redneck type schools like Wake, NCSU, and Clemson. Those 3 obviously don't help the reputation of Duke or the ACC, and are why people look down on the ACC throughout most of the east coast and around the nation. Duke and other ACC schools don't have as much exposure north of the mason dixon line as it should or could since ACC only covers a sparsely populated third of the Atlantic Coast. Alums of many ACC schools don't get to see games, Syracuse, BC, Miami, and Penn State would fix that and every other ACC problem. Increased exposure would lead to more applications, selectivity, and better academic reputations for all schools as well. Dukies can at least respect UVA for having second best academics in ACC, UNC for caring so much about and winning in sports, UMD for its basketball and football, GT for having second highest SATs in ACC, and FSU for its football. Why would Wake, Clemson, and NCSU, have any problems with being in a new Big East league with VT, WVU, Rutgers, Pitt, UConn, and others like Louisville, Cincinnati, East Carolina, and Temple, since that would have several great football and basketball programs nearby, especially after struggling so much in the ACC? Really, this Atlantic League is all for the best, for all schools and conferences involved and especially Wake, Clemson, and NCSU fans, since fans want to win and have a chance at conference if not national titles, at least once in a while.
07-17-2002 10:15 AM
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JD Heel
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Post: #58
 
Florida to Maryland is only "a third of the Atlantic coast?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

-JD
07-17-2002 10:20 AM
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Lucy
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Post: #59
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JD Heel:
Florida to Maryland is only "a third of the Atlantic coast?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

-JD</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Obviously Duke doesn't offer courses on geography. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Blue Devil, I could care less about your degree from Duke...if you were on the 3 year program like the athletes, then it ranks up there with the drive-by diplomas offered by academic powerhouses such as UGA. I do wonder what crawled up your behind & died to make you so determined to trash the reputations of State, Clemson & Wake. As far as engineering programs, State ranks right up there with GT on the national scale. In many industries, graduates from Tech, Clemson & State are very much in demand. My company, for example, will not be recruiting at Duke, but we already have visits set up at Clemson & Tech to nab Class of 2003 grads early. As far as Wake, it has the reputation of being part of the "Ivy League of the South". That is definitely the kind of reputation that a school welcomes, and somehow that moniker does not correlate with the terms you are hung up on: mediocre & horrendous (vocabulary wasn't one of your A's at Duke either, huh?)

Until you offer concrete proof for your insane rantings, you will continue to be considered a member of the lunatic fringe.

Oh, let me add: Wake a redneck type school???? You have to be the first person to EVER use that description in connection with Wake! Even all the "how many lightbulbs does it take" jokes always have Wake with the answer of 5: 1 to change the lightbulb & 4 to find the perfect J.Crew outfit for the occasion. Wake was always preppy back in the day, and known for its J.Crew or Abercrombie fashion statements in more recent years. Redneck? Not even close. <img border="0" alt="[laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Lucy ]</small>
07-17-2002 10:29 AM
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Big Pimpin Deac
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Post: #60
 
You did not go to Duke, Blue Balls, as evidenced by your flaming them on the Duke board. If you had, I would go off about the sickening grade inflation that takes place there. Also, no Duke graduate would even attempt to rationalize expelling other members of the conference, when their own football and baseball programs are in shambles.

I pray for the day some pansy-ass like you calls Wake a redneck school to my face.
07-17-2002 10:37 AM
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