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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #61
 
Lucy Wrote:And Wake Forest is the exception to the norm, as usual... 03-wink

I researched our 2003 home shooting percentage vs. away shooting percentage (not including post-season)...next to no difference:

Home shooting percentage: 46.55%
Away shooting percentage: 45.34%

I knew we were a fairly consistent team, but these numbers help confirm that impression for me.

I think in many games it all comes down to who you are playing, and how much of a rivalry is perceived by the team.

Examples: We played Wisconsin in Madison and were the deciding factor in the ACC winning the ACC/Big 10 Challenge. Despite a HUGE home crowd of Badgers, Wake shot 54.1% from the field and won that game, ending Wisconsin's 26 game home winning streak.

The other examples would be our 2 games against NC State this year. We won both games, shooting 56.2% at home and 54.9% in Raleigh. Why were we so up for these games? Because of the intensity of the games played between the 2 teams over the past 5 years. Wake & State have really picked up the sense of rivalry in basketball, and so the desire to win really emerged in the games.

I firmly believe that the fan presence is a factor in a win or loss, but it is not the end all/be all, nor the deciding factor. It comes down to how well the team is playing together (as opposed to a bunch of stars who don't gel as a team). If a team is having chemistry problems, they'll lose more often than not, and will lose even at home in front of an arena full of their fans.
Indeed Wake did have a very consistent year. There are the exception no matter how you look at it. Too bad they couldn't carry that into the NCAA's though.

MD on the other hand shot 50.3% from the field at home while shooting just 40.7% while on the road in the ACC regular season. They follwed that up with a fine 39.4% showing in Greensboro. I guess you could say MD too was consistent (consistently bad on the road).

So the conclusion to your Wake team and my MD team's perceptions would result in this: Wake didn't factor home-court as and advantage (as proved by their numbers) and MD did (as proved by their numbers). So when you say "I firmly believe that the fan presence is a factor in a win or loss, but it is not the end all/be all, nor the deciding factor", you must be referring to Wake and not MD. The numbers prove what a key "deciding" factor the fans play in the success of the Terps. Just because they don't play as much a factor for Wake doesn't mean they don't for other schools.

Does that mean Wake isn't as hostile a place as MD or Duke or UNC? I don't know, I haven't been there. My guess would be that the atmosphere there is a little lower key than the madness of the other big 4 schools. Or I would even be willing to accept that Wake WAS just that good.
05-02-2003 08:20 AM
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Lucy
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Post: #62
 
There has been an ongoing debate on the other Wake board as to the merits of a "small, cozy on-campus arena" versus a larger arena such as the Joel, Comcast, or RBC Center. One of the factors that the pro-OCA crowd puts out there is being able to practice on the court that you play on (note: the Joel is co-owned by WFU and the city of Winston-Salem, and as such, the team splits practice time between the Miller Athletic Center on campus & the Joel, depending on the availability of the Joel). These fans feel that having full-time access would benefit the team because the team would have a higher familiarity level with the facility itself and with or without the fans present, this familiarity is key.

My feeling is that getting too familiar with your home court could be a detriment as evidenced by the lopsided home vs. away record of Georgia Tech this past year, and evidenced by the difference in shooting percentage of many ACC teams at home & on the road. It isn't just having the fans, it is feeling at home with the facility. Wake's even numbers could partially be attributed to the fact that they have a comfort level in playing & practicing in different locations, making the team a bit more versatile. Just a thought, and I could be reaching, but it kinda makes sense.

Another question to throw out there is why don't Maryland and GT adjust well to playing in more "hostile" environments? Is this a weakness on the part of the players, on the part of the coaches for not preparing the team to play on the road? Or is it just par for the course and teams that can play well both at home & away the anomaly?



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05-02-2003 08:37 AM
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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #63
 
JD Heel Wrote:UNC -- and especially State -- are always going to have a bigger crowd pulling for them against dook than against Maryland. I still don't understand why you think there is this big "Let's gang up on Maryland" sentiment among all the Big Four fans. It's not like that at all.

If either UNC or State last year had been in those games against dook, the fans would have gone wild. They were just blowouts from the start, plain and simple -- there was no chance for a crowd to get into the game. The fans were probably asleep by the 10-minute mark of the first half.

We lost to dook because -- like you said -- we were inconsistent and poorly coached at times. Maryland took us lightly, and we had a lot of incentive to beat them (after getting trounced earlier that year). We didn't have as much to prove against dook because we'd beaten them a week before. Plus, we were just spent after the Maryland game, physically and mentally. dook took advantage of all of that.

We started off badly both games of this year's tourney. But, Maryland kept us in the first round game, whereas dook put us away early. It had nothing to do with the crowd.

-JD
"If either UNC or State last year had been in those games against dook, the fans would have gone wild. " --- Why weren't they in those games? Is Duke that much better? Duke lost to both NC and NC State in the regular season. MD won both games against both.

I never said there was a "gang up on MD" mentality. I did say that while MD is a top team and has to play in NC they will have a disadvantage. The same disadvantage UNC will have when they come to DC in 2005. That's all. Home-court advantage means a whole lot in my opinion (refer to my post to Lucy).

Look. I DO realize that there are 4 sets of NC fans pulling for 4 seperate teams when the tourney is played in NC. I also realize they are not always going to have the advantage when there will always be 3 other NC team fans that want that other NC team to loose. One thing I do know is that no NC team fan will root for MD while MD is a top school and the tourney is played in NC. The reason is not because we are from MD, it's because we are a top team and the other schools don't want to play us. I get that...so let's drop it.

You seem to keep missing my point. I never wanted to argue that MD gets screwed when playing in NC. I would expect that. I just want to make sure the "prestigious" NC schools get to feel that same discomfort MD has had to feel for the past how ever many consectutive or semi-consecutive years the tourney has been in NC. Make it fair.

I will still travel to NC to watch my team play in the tourney. I also want to be on your end one day and argue that having the tourney in DC didn't help MD or VA out at all like you keep stating (laughable).
05-02-2003 08:50 AM
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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #64
 
Lucy Wrote:There has been an ongoing debate on the other Wake board as to the merits of a "small, cozy on-campus arena" versus a larger arena such as the Joel, Comcast, or RBC Center. One of the factors that the pro-OCA crowd puts out there is being able to practice on the court that you play on (note: the Joel is co-owned by WFU and the city of Winston-Salem, and as such, the team splits practice time between the Miller Athletic Center on campus & the Joel, depending on the availability of the Joel). These fans feel that having full-time access would benefit the team because the team would have a higher familiarity level with the facility itself and with or without the fans present, this familiarity is key.

My feeling is that getting too familiar with your home court could be a detriment as evidenced by the lopsided home vs. away record of Georgia Tech this past year, and evidenced by the difference in shooting percentage of many ACC teams at home & on the road. It isn't just having the fans, it is feeling at home with the facility. Wake's even numbers could partially be attributed to the fact that they have a comfort level in playing & practicing in different locations, making the team a bit more versatile. Just a thought, and I could be reaching, but it kinda makes sense.

Another question to throw out there is why don't Maryland and GT adjust well to playing in more "hostile" environments? Is this a weakness on the part of the players, on the part of the coaches for not preparing the team to play on the road? Or is it just par for the course and teams that can play well both at home & away the anomaly?
Geez Lucy...you type really fast. Sometimes you just impress the hell out of me with your thought process. You make very valid points.

I think if you look at Wake's history (not just this year) that the numbers weren't always so balanced. I think Wake was great this year and the % difference was factored out by experience and leadership of your team. Wake had some great "business as usual" players. Those types of players treat every game with a sort of business approach rather than a psychological/mental approach (just a thought).

Maryland was lead by 1 returning starter (who is known as a very emotional guy). All the other seniors were part-time players the year before. We also had 4 rookies that played key roles. Experience does mean a lot in over-coming the away game harrassment (proof of that was last year's team that won all but one in the ACC). This hold true for Duke, UNC and NC State who are filled with un-experienced players. Wake was the exception.

So I guess to answer a few questions at once would be to say that experience in your team is the deciding factor between winning those close games on the road in a hostile environment and losing them. It takes these kids who have never played before such crowds a few year's of starting to use it to their advantage (as the 2001 terps did). GT expecially had young players and their record showed that. MD had more experienced players, but all but one had started before that year. MD just never gelled as a team like the team from a year before, therefore never built that mental toughness needed to hit the road.
05-02-2003 09:09 AM
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JD Heel
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Post: #65
 
My point is that the "home-court advantage" that you speak of in the ACC tourney isn't as big as you make it out to be. At least, it isn't for the first round of tourney games held in NC. And it isn't for those games beyond that unless you have one NC team and three non-NC teams left (and that almost never happens in any ACC tourney).

I admit that it may be a bigger advantage for you guys when the tourney is held in D.C. Maryland will have a tremendous opportunity to dominate that tourney with fans like no NC team has ever been or will ever be able to do. That'll especially be true if Virginia is playing down in the dumps that year. And I certainly understand why you want the tourney there -- so you can have that advantage.

But, that is precisely the reason why I don't think you should get the tourney there more than once every eight years or so.

As I mentioned before, I'm just tired of other fans in the ACC acting like my team has been given a gifthorse by having the tourney in NC so much. It truly is a double-edged sword....

-JD
05-02-2003 09:35 AM
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Lucy
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Post: #66
 
Why thank you, kaiser...there are times I seem to work on a stream of consciousness, so I'm glad to know I haven't drifted too far... 03-wink

I think your last points are very much on target. Overall the ACC lost a ton of experienced players from the 2002 season and every team suffered from that lack of leadership/experience at some point in the season, probably most of all in the NCAAs. Next year should be interesting because all of the rookies & part-timers will have that year of tough play under their belts, so it will be key to see who steps up to lead & shine on each team.

Another aspect that I look forward to observing will be how the teams who did suffer from chemistry problems deal with & recover from that in the offseason. How will Virginia bounce back from the personnel problems (i.e. Jenifer's mental/emotional crash)? How will UNC recover from the fallout from the Doherty fiasco as well as adjusting to having a healthy Sean May back in the rotation? Will Herb Sendek keep the "no-position" offense or will he change things to have his players playing in their natural positions, and will Julius Hodge have to play PG?

How many weeks till Midnight Madness? :laugh:
05-02-2003 09:55 AM
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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #67
 
JD Heel Wrote:My point is that the "home-court advantage" that you speak of in the ACC tourney isn't as big as you make it out to be. At least, it isn't for the first round of tourney games held in NC. And it isn't for those games beyond that unless you have one NC team and three non-NC teams left (and that almost never happens in any ACC tourney).

I admit that it may be a bigger advantage for you guys when the tourney is held in D.C. Maryland will have a tremendous opportunity to dominate that tourney with fans like no NC team has ever been or will ever be able to do. That'll especially be true if Virginia is playing down in the dumps that year. And I certainly understand why you want the tourney there -- so you can have that advantage.

But, that is precisely the reason why I don't think you should get the tourney there more than once every eight years or so.

As I mentioned before, I'm just tired of other fans in the ACC acting like my team has been given a gifthorse by having the tourney in NC so much. It truly is a double-edged sword....

-JD
I see your point about the first round and generally agree that if UNC had an overwhelming advantage, they would win it more often. The problem there is there are so many other NC schoold represented in the stands.

I am not saying the tourney should be in DC every year, just as many times as the two schools it represents factor into a nine team conference (2 out of 9 years). That's all. That would still leave the tourney in NC every other time. Isn't that fair?

Perhaps it will be a bigger advantage for MD than it is for UNC but shouldn't that be determined by the loyal fans that make the same trip I do every year? Just because NC falls in the center of the conference doesn't mean that every team in that conference shouldn't have the right to the same opportunities that NC teams do. Regardless of whether VA (who beat us twice this year) or FLA or Clemson suck, their respective schools pay the same dues as the Carolina schools.
05-02-2003 10:12 AM
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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #68
 
Lucy Wrote:Why thank you, kaiser...there are times I seem to work on a stream of consciousness, so I'm glad to know I haven't drifted too far... 03-wink

I think your last points are very much on target. Overall the ACC lost a ton of experienced players from the 2002 season and every team suffered from that lack of leadership/experience at some point in the season, probably most of all in the NCAAs. Next year should be interesting because all of the rookies & part-timers will have that year of tough play under their belts, so it will be key to see who steps up to lead & shine on each team.

Another aspect that I look forward to observing will be how the teams who did suffer from chemistry problems deal with & recover from that in the offseason. How will Virginia bounce back from the personnel problems (i.e. Jenifer's mental/emotional crash)? How will UNC recover from the fallout from the Doherty fiasco as well as adjusting to having a healthy Sean May back in the rotation? Will Herb Sendek keep the "no-position" offense or will he change things to have his players playing in their natural positions, and will Julius Hodge have to play PG?

How many weeks till Midnight Madness? :laugh:
Let's start with VA. They still have some very good players, but they will fair no better than last year. Losing Watson will prove a back-breaker. I was never really sold on Jenifer's hype anyway. He only seemed to be consistent about one thing: being inconsistent. On the other hand, that Billet kid is a killer.

NC State has a good team and is always hyped up more than their record ever shows. They have great players and a coach that just seems unable to grasp the necessary fundementals that would make their team great. I think their major issue is confidence. If they ever found any, they would be a real threat to the big schools.

UNC to me just looks scary as hell. They showed absolute brilliance at times last year. With better, more structured coaching, they could be a top 5 team in the country. I haven't seen a PG as quick as Felton since AI. McCants is a very Dahntay Jones-ish type of player that if he ever finds his place will be great. May...God, where do I start? I sure wish he played for MD. If injuries don't kill him, he will be the best center since Tim Duncan in the ACC. Then you have to factor in reality. How many of these high ranked recruits will even stick around? May will be gone after one solid injury free year, McCants will do the same, and Felton will leave as soon as his place in the draft is high enough. There's always a price to pay when you take a chance on those higher recruits.

Now onto MD. MD had a great recruiting class coming in which includes a kid named Mike Jones. He is the most spectacular player I have ever seen MD recruit (#2 guard in the country behind Duke's Deng). This kid won the MCd's 3-point contest and was a #2 ranked track star in his home state. They have the answer for May coming by the name of Fofana (6' 10 270lbs). They have another high recruit that's a 2-3 position player who is fast and long (Ibekwe 6-9, 190lbs). Couple them with the Nik Caner-Medley, John Gilcrist, Jamar Smith and Travis Garrison and you have a great future. I won't waist all my time building up Gilcrist because that could take all day. I will say that he will be a premier PG in the NCAA's sooner than most would think. The question about MD is not whether they will be a great team as much as it it when they will achieve the greatness. Next year might be a stretch, but I would put money on the 2005 season (the season the ACC Tourney is held in DC).
05-02-2003 10:34 AM
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JD Heel
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Post: #69
 
Right, and that's why I agree with moving it around.

I don't agree with giving it to D.C. twice in nine years. Especially if UVa still hasn't won a first round game by then, it will basically be giving it to Maryland twice in nine years. By the way, Greensboro is only a little over an hour farther away from Charlottesville than D.C. is -- and that's not taking into account D.C. traffic.

My rotation would have it going to NC at least every other year, D.C. once in whatever that span is, somewhere in Florida once, and Atlanta twice. It might look something like this:

1. Greensboro
2. Atlanta
3. Charlotte
4. Greensboro
5. D.C.
6. Charlotte
7. Atlanta
8. Greensboro
9. Tampa

That's pretty close to the current setup, except they seem to not like it be away from Greensboro for any more than two years in a row.

-JD
05-02-2003 10:38 AM
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kaisersayzo Offline
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Post: #70
 
JD Heel Wrote:Right, and that's why I agree with moving it around.

I don't agree with giving it to D.C. twice in nine years. Especially if UVa still hasn't won a first round game by then, it will basically be giving it to Maryland twice in nine years. By the way, Greensboro is only a little over an hour farther away from Charlottesville than D.C. is -- and that's not taking into account D.C. traffic.

My rotation would have it going to NC at least every other year, D.C. once in whatever that span is, somewhere in Florida once, and Atlanta twice. It might look something like this:

1. Greensboro
2. Atlanta
3. Charlotte
4. Greensboro
5. D.C.
6. Charlotte
7. Atlanta
8. Greensboro
9. Tampa

That's pretty close to the current setup, except they seem to not like it be away from Greensboro for any more than two years in a row.

-JD
OK...so we agree about everything accept the fact that the MD/VA area should get it twice. I thought we had agreed before that it is unfair to punish those schools that are usually at the bottom of the conference. If that were the case than the tourney should be held in Cameron Indoor Stadium every year. Would you like that? I didn't think so. Make it fair for all dues paying schools no matter what their records. The venues will sell out where ever it is.

I guess you would also make a case that since MD has had troubles in the tourney that they should'nt have the chance to host either....or Clemson...or G' tech...or FLA...and so on. Let's also not forget that the day VA does host, they aren't required to have it in DC. They could as easily decide Richmond would better fit (I know, it's a stretch).
05-02-2003 12:43 PM
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MsNole
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Post: #71
 
<a href='http://espn.go.com/ncaa/s/2003/0505/1549669.html' target='_blank'>ESPN's view on Expansion</a>




:wave: :wave: :wave: <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Do the Warchant</span></span> :wave: :wave: :wave:
05-06-2003 05:28 PM
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T-Monay820
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Post: #72
 
I was listening on the radio and the guy suggested that they could play an ACC football championship at Ericson Stadium. What do you all think about that?
05-06-2003 07:11 PM
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MsNole
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Post: #73
 
<a href='http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-umacc08may08,0,4642654.story?coll=sfla-sports-front' target='_blank'>Miami Coaches Talk About the ACC</a>





:wave: :wave: :wave: <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Do the Warchant</span></span> :wave: :wave: :wave:
05-08-2003 03:44 PM
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MsNole
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Post: #74
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:I was listening on the radio and the guy suggested that they could play an ACC football championship at Ericson Stadium. What do you all think about that?
If my thinking is correct, Ericson Stadium is in Miami. It wouldn't be right to hold the conference championship in a place like that. The ACC would need to pick a big stadium, like the SEC, does that is impartial to any school. Like Alltel in Jacksonville :D





:wave: :wave: :wave: <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Do the Warchant</span></span> :wave: :wave: :wave:
05-08-2003 03:51 PM
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JD Heel
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Post: #75
 
Ericsson Stadium is in Charlotte. Not sure what Miami's stadium is called -- I know it used to be Pro Player Stadium, but these things change yearly, it seems....

-JD
05-12-2003 08:49 AM
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