NCAAbbs

when they had the chance...tantalizing talent, but absolutely no drive or fire...I would rather have Trevor Ariza at this point...

everyone knows this team is OJ's anyway...

ooh...Ariza would have been a nice addition to the team.

Let the man score and see if they can get any takers. World of potential - which is scary if you can imagine him getting serious about what he could do.

Oh, and throw in Conley while you are at it.

if Gay ever got serious he would be a great player in this league...the frame and athleticism are there.

His defense last night was HORRIBLE! At least Mayo trys. I don't see that from Rudy.

(11-03-2009 01:43 PM)ByrdDogX Wrote: [ -> ]Let the man score and see if they can get any takers. World of potential - which is scary if you can imagine him getting serious about what he could do.

Oh, and throw in Conley while you are at it.

The Suns offered Amare Stoudemire for Gay, Conley, and Warrick. Heisley turned it down.

Glad he did. By picking up Z-Bo, we filled the 4 spot without giving anything up.

well, he gave up $16 million or so of cap space for a guy who will be on the first train out in two seasons if he isn't traded before then anyway...

and he simply let Warrick walk, so he got nothing out of that...

and he is going to have to let Gay walk or sign him to an absurd deal...

but yeah, I see your point...Amare probably would have walked as well.

Agree. Instead there is a chance we let him walk as a FA and get nothing out of him. If that happens, he'll probably go to a winning team and become a major player off the bench.

he really pissed me off last night

Pretty tired of Gay, too. The effort just isn't there defensively, and he isnt consistent enough on the offensive side to be our leader.

The Grizzlies made a great decision by not budging on their salary offer. Now, Rudy will have to play his ace off to get a contract in one of the toughest years ever for free agents. The market will be so stacked next year with talent, and nearly every team is looking at ways to cut digits off their bottom line.

Gay will have to come out and play for a contract now. If he earns his contract this year, then I'm all for paying the man. There may be a nice suitor or two looking for a trade, as well. Find some draft picks for next years draft.

On the other hand, my boys Z-Bo and Marc are showin out like crazy. If they can keep this up, they will be one of the strongest frontcourts in the NBA.

^absolutely. IMO, right now Z-Bo and Marc are a higher priority than Rudy Gay.

Let Gay walk. He's really just a poor man's Vince Carter: a ton of potential with no heart. Any time you give a guy like that a long-term contract to be a franchise player, your team has committed to sucking for a long time. Countless examples bear this out.

They can do several things with Rudy. They can match any offer another team makes, even if its a mediocre offer. They can execute a sign-and-trade at the end of the season. They can let him walk and get nothing in return.

I prefer the sign-and-trade route.

Gay will be a RFA this offseason and gives the Grizz the right to match the offer. In saying that, if a team makes an offer to him. The Grizz can match the offer this makes the team that signed him have to work on a sign and trade package. Or what I would like to really see is a trade.

Gay and Young for CDR and Yi.

Gay goes to a team that has the money to resign him and Young is a freak but looks lost out on the court to me. Yi gives scoring off the bench and CDR is playing really good ball right now. The fans will come out more to support the team because he is on the team. Just makes sense right now. Plus, CDR does need the ball in his hands to score. I think he is better defensively than Gay. You put Conley on the bench, move OJ to the point and make CDR your 2 and put Carroll in for your defensive stopper. Just an idea...

(11-03-2009 05:34 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]Gay will be a RFA this offseason and gives the Grizz the right to match the offer. In saying that, if a team makes an offer to him. The Grizz can match the offer this makes the team that signed him have to work on a sign and trade package. Or what I would like to really see is a trade.

Gay and Young for CDR and Yi.

Gay goes to a team that has the money to resign him and Young is a freak but looks lost out on the court to me. Yi gives scoring off the bench and CDR is playing really good ball right now. The fans will come out more to support the team because he is on the team. Just makes sense right now. Plus, CDR does need the ball in his hands to score. I think he is better defensively than Gay. You put Conley on the bench, move OJ to the point and make CDR your 2 and put Carroll in for your defensive stopper. Just an idea...

Terrible trade. Mayo is not a PG. CDR would back up Mayo.

I wouldn't take Yi for free.

We need a big guard/small forward that can play D. We may HAVE to play OJ at the point regardless and just live with it. For God's sake we arent going to win jack with Conley, OJ and Rudy on the perimeter together. Thats why I thought we should have drafted Tyreke. He had a bad game last night, but he will be a serviceable combo guard in the future. Everyone gets too uptight about point guard. The majority of the championship teams dont have a dominant pg except for the Spurs. The Heat won a title with JWill at the point.

(11-03-2009 05:45 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 05:34 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]Gay will be a RFA this offseason and gives the Grizz the right to match the offer. In saying that, if a team makes an offer to him. The Grizz can match the offer this makes the team that signed him have to work on a sign and trade package. Or what I would like to really see is a trade.

Gay and Young for CDR and Yi.

Gay goes to a team that has the money to resign him and Young is a freak but looks lost out on the court to me. Yi gives scoring off the bench and CDR is playing really good ball right now. The fans will come out more to support the team because he is on the team. Just makes sense right now. Plus, CDR does need the ball in his hands to score. I think he is better defensively than Gay. You put Conley on the bench, move OJ to the point and make CDR your 2 and put Carroll in for your defensive stopper. Just an idea...

Terrible trade. Mayo is not a PG. CDR would back up Mayo.

I wouldn't take Yi for free.

Considering what the free agent market will be in the NBA this upcoming year and the glut of players available, let us offer him a restricted free agent deal and see what happens. I like Rudy Gay, but a lillte more defensive player would be better for the Grizzlies in my opinion.

Using the NBA trade machine: Send Mike Conley to Orlando. Rudy Gay and Marko Jaric to Philadelphia.
Receive Andre Iguodala, Jrue Holliday, and Anthony Johnson.
This would boost us by 8 wins according to ESPN.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

Im obsessed. Trade Gay, Conley, and Jaric to Washinton for Arenas and increase the wins by 12.

(11-03-2009 06:12 PM)fishman6581 Wrote: [ -> ]Using the NBA trade machine: Send Mike Conley to Orlando. Rudy Gay and Marko Jaric to Philadelphia.
Receive Andre Iguodala, Jrue Holliday, and Anthony Johnson.
This would boost us by 8 wins according to ESPN.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

(11-03-2009 06:14 PM)fishman6581 Wrote: [ -> ]Im obsessed. Trade Gay, Conley, and Jaric to Washinton for Arenas and increase the wins by 12.

I would like to see a trade, but I don't see anybody giving up anything more than role players and/or non-lottery draft picks for Rudy Gay. Which I guess is better than nothing, but not very exciting.

(11-03-2009 05:34 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]Gay will be a RFA this offseason and gives the Grizz the right to match the offer. In saying that, if a team makes an offer to him. The Grizz can match the offer this makes the team that signed him have to work on a sign and trade package. Or what I would like to really see is a trade.

Gay and Young for CDR and Yi.

Gay goes to a team that has the money to resign him and Young is a freak but looks lost out on the court to me. Yi gives scoring off the bench and CDR is playing really good ball right now. The fans will come out more to support the team because he is on the team. Just makes sense right now. Plus, CDR does need the ball in his hands to score. I think he is better defensively than Gay. You put Conley on the bench, move OJ to the point and make CDR your 2 and put Carroll in for your defensive stopper. Just an idea...

Are you serious? Do you pay attention to the NBA game? I love me some CDR, but he would be a 6th man/energy guy at best on a good team. He scores but not a lot else. Yi? Yi? what??

Verno had a great point on your local guy theory - you think Jordan Farmar puts 1 butt in the seats because he is a local guy who plays off the bench? No, it is because Kobe is awesome; Pau, Lamar, Ron, and Bynum are good. Rose packs them in in Chicago because he will be awesome. Lebron James is awesome. It has nothing to do that they are local guys.

I don't like Fish's trade with Iguodala - he has his critics too. Danny Granger in Indy would be a thought as he can play some D and rebounds. The Amare trade trigger was never pulled because he is looking for a BIG deal at the end of this year with a good team in a big market. He would never sign here. Unless we can get a great young player (Brandon Roy, Rose, Durant, Westbrook, etc.) no trades for Gay at this point. The the new CBA coming, Rudy may have just lost money as no one will give him a max contract with the cap falling. If they do, more power to him and woe to that team.

the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

(11-03-2009 10:54 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ]the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

Agree - my point is that we won't get any trade value for gay - we will get less than what we have, so we might as well keep him and see how it works out. I hate his lack of D as well, but people stated that he was one of the best players in Vegas this summer - maybe that was a fluke and maybe not. The guy is still just 23. But, I am hacked at him too...

fwiw Gay was offered 5 year $50,000,000 contract. he wanted $12,000,000 per so he did not sign.

imo he is not worth anywhere near the $$$$, even the $10,000,000. He is the 4th or 5th best player on the Grizz (a losing team)

the problem with the Grizz is that they trade players, or let them walk, after the league knows that the player sucks. IF they would have traded Gay already they could have gotten top value for him, the longer he loafs though through his carreer, his trade value goes down.

I wouldn't trade Gay for another scorer that doesn't play defense.

Either get a good defensive small forward or don't make the trade.

(11-04-2009 08:41 AM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't trade Gay for another scorer that doesn't play defense.

Either get a good defensive small forward or don't make the trade.

Ironically that's what we gave up to get him.

(11-04-2009 12:36 AM)BinghamptonNed Wrote: [ -> ]the problem with the Grizz is that they trade players, or let them walk, after the league knows that the player sucks. IF they would have traded Gay already they could have gotten top value for him, the longer he loafs though through his carreer, his trade value goes down.

This is so true. They definitely kept Pau a couple of seasons too long. I believe they could have stolen a near-top player and a 1st round pick for Pau when he was at his peak.

I would be very hesitant on giving Gay a long term contract. Types like him that play on talent alone with no heart go into coasting mode with a long term contract.

(11-04-2009 12:41 PM)TJT Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 08:41 AM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't trade Gay for another scorer that doesn't play defense.

Either get a good defensive small forward or don't make the trade.

Ironically that's what we gave up to get him.

If I"m not mistaken, that was one of the last deals Jerry West made before he left.

Anyone who thinks Gay's value is decreasing..think again! He is in high demand still and every year is "close" to being an all star. His #s are good. Just bc he is not a good defensive player doesnt excclude him from a top level player. I am for trading him however but only for a Garnger type player.

(11-04-2009 03:03 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone who thinks Gay's value is decreasing..think again! He is in high demand still and every year is "close" to being an all star. His #s are good. Just bc he is not a good defensive player doesnt excclude him from a top level player. I am for trading him however but only for a Garnger type player.

You ever seen Vince Carter play a lick of defense? Tracy McGrady has never won a playoff game, either. Not that Gay is that good, but at 23, he still has their upside. Neither one of those guys play D and have made quite a living. Guys who can score are rare in the NBA. he will make a good living. Pau has looked quite good as a Laker for the last several years.

The issue with both Pau and Gay is not whether they are tradeable or whether they play defense. The issue is that they are/were arguably the team's best player (you can make a case for them) and they are no better than a #2 or #3 option on a great team. I have no issue signing Rudy, as long as he isn't given a max contract and the franchise doesn't treat him as a franchise player.

(11-04-2009 02:50 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 12:41 PM)TJT Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 08:41 AM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't trade Gay for another scorer that doesn't play defense.

Either get a good defensive small forward or don't make the trade.

Ironically that's what we gave up to get him.

If I"m not mistaken, that was one of the last deals Jerry West made before he left.

great point. I would like to have Battier on this team and I bet the Rockets would love to have Rudy's scoring. I wonder if they are interested in a trade back?

(11-04-2009 04:17 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 02:50 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 12:41 PM)TJT Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 08:41 AM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't trade Gay for another scorer that doesn't play defense.

Either get a good defensive small forward or don't make the trade.

Ironically that's what we gave up to get him.

If I"m not mistaken, that was one of the last deals Jerry West made before he left.

great point. I would like to have Battier on this team and I bet the Rockets would love to have Rudy's scoring. I wonder if they are interested in a trade back?

Based on salary alone, Houston would have to throw in another player or draft pick to make that trade work. I'd prefer a draft pick instead of a deadbeat player with a boat anchor contract.

Houston has Ariza now. They don't want Gay.

(11-03-2009 11:25 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 10:54 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ]the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

Agree - my point is that we won't get any trade value for gay - we will get less than what we have, so we might as well keep him and see how it works out. I hate his lack of D as well, but people stated that he was one of the best players in Vegas this summer - maybe that was a fluke and maybe not. The guy is still just 23. But, I am hacked at him too...

For the record I do watch basketball. The question is have you been watching CDR. He has been starting for the Nets. He jumper is just as good as Gay's, he takes the ball to the hole better than gay and can finish around the rim. He gets to the foul line too. Gay has been in the league for 3 year and he has never made that jump. Look at Roy, he made that jump to All Star last year. Rudy plays no D what so ever, he take bad shots. Hell OJ has done more in one season than Rudy. So lets not pretend to the fact he is only 23 and will get better. He is a 3rd option on any team that he plays for. CDR is very loved here. I also added Yi because of salaries. Sorry, the NBA wont allow me to have a the perfect trade. But I am open to hear who you think we should trade him for????

Also, Gay is averaging 18 points season and this is his 4th year. CDR is averaging 14 point in his first year starting for the nets. I think he has more room to grow than Gay.

(11-03-2009 05:34 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]Gay will be a RFA this offseason and gives the Grizz the right to match the offer. In saying that, if a team makes an offer to him. The Grizz can match the offer this makes the team that signed him have to work on a sign and trade package. Or what I would like to really see is a trade.

Gay and Young for CDR and Yi.

Gay goes to a team that has the money to resign him and Young is a freak but looks lost out on the court to me. Yi gives scoring off the bench and CDR is playing really good ball right now. The fans will come out more to support the team because he is on the team. Just makes sense right now. Plus, CDR does need the ball in his hands to score. I think he is better defensively than Gay. You put Conley on the bench, move OJ to the point and make CDR your 2 and put Carroll in for your defensive stopper. Just an idea...

Yi is out indefinantly.

Griz trade
Mike Conley
Rudy Gay
Sam Young
Marko Jaric

To Wizards for

Caron Butler - 18pts. 6 reb.
Andray Blatche - 18 pts. 6 reb.
Randy Foye- 13 pts. 5 assts.
2nd Round pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
(+15 wins) = +880,000 salary cap

(11-04-2009 07:27 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]Griz trade
Mike Conley
Rudy Gay
Sam Young
Marko Jaric

To Wizards for

Caron Butler - 18pts. 6 reb.
Andray Blatche - 18 pts. 6 reb.
Randy Foye- 13 pts. 5 assts.
2nd Round pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
(+15 wins) = +880,000 salary cap

Fine except there's no way the Wizards agree to that trade.

(11-04-2009 08:36 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 07:27 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]Griz trade
Mike Conley
Rudy Gay
Sam Young
Marko Jaric

To Wizards for

Caron Butler - 18pts. 6 reb.
Andray Blatche - 18 pts. 6 reb.
Randy Foye- 13 pts. 5 assts.
2nd Round pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
(+15 wins) = +880,000 salary cap

Fine except there's no way the Wizards agree to that trade.

I meant to add our 2nd round pick and not theirs.

(11-04-2009 08:36 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 07:27 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]Griz trade
Mike Conley
Rudy Gay
Sam Young
Marko Jaric

To Wizards for

Caron Butler - 18pts. 6 reb.
Andray Blatche - 18 pts. 6 reb.
Randy Foye- 13 pts. 5 assts.
2nd Round pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
(+15 wins) = +880,000 salary cap

Fine except there's no way the Wizards agree to that trade.

Were just messing around with a game not making the big office decisions.

(11-04-2009 08:39 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 08:36 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 07:27 PM)MOVES Wrote: [ -> ]Griz trade
Mike Conley
Rudy Gay
Sam Young
Marko Jaric

To Wizards for

Caron Butler - 18pts. 6 reb.
Andray Blatche - 18 pts. 6 reb.
Randy Foye- 13 pts. 5 assts.
2nd Round pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
(+15 wins) = +880,000 salary cap

Fine except there's no way the Wizards agree to that trade.

I meant to add our 2nd round pick and not theirs.

Still no way that trade happens. And it wouldn't really help us.

Should be intersting tonight. These two teams could combine for about 250. Lots of divas involved with AI, Stephen Jackson and Monte Ellis.

(11-04-2009 05:55 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 11:25 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 10:54 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ]the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

Agree - my point is that we won't get any trade value for gay - we will get less than what we have, so we might as well keep him and see how it works out. I hate his lack of D as well, but people stated that he was one of the best players in Vegas this summer - maybe that was a fluke and maybe not. The guy is still just 23. But, I am hacked at him too...

For the record I do watch basketball. The question is have you been watching CDR. He has been starting for the Nets. He jumper is just as good as Gay's, he takes the ball to the hole better than gay and can finish around the rim. He gets to the foul line too. Gay has been in the league for 3 year and he has never made that jump. Look at Roy, he made that jump to All Star last year. Rudy plays no D what so ever, he take bad shots. Hell OJ has done more in one season than Rudy. So lets not pretend to the fact he is only 23 and will get better. He is a 3rd option on any team that he plays for. CDR is very loved here. I also added Yi because of salaries. Sorry, the NBA wont allow me to have a the perfect trade. But I am open to hear who you think we should trade him for????

CDR wouldn't get off the bench for a good team. Put Rudy on the Nets this year and he averages 25 because he has to. I hope CDR becomes an all star, Ireally do, but someone has to score for the Nets and I don't see anyone other than Harris or Lee that can score for them.

There is NO way CDR's jumper is better than Rudy. CDR isn't a 3 point threat and Rudy is. I agree that Rudy doesn't play defense and that hacks me off too, but I would keep him as a 2nd or 3rd option.

If I was in the trade market, I would try to get Danny Granger from the Pacers, maybe Iguodala (maybe - as I stated earlier, he has some question marks around heart, etc., but to Fish's point above, he would probably be worth looking at, so I will recount my statement above) from the Sixers. I would take Battier back with all of these scorers we have. Maybe Caron Butler. Jeff Green from OKC. Thaddeus Young. I would look at a guy who could score 12-16 points a night and can play D. It would depend on who else we would have to thrown in, but I would look at all of those guys mentioned (not all are gettable, but I wouldn't settle for less than what I have put there and in some cases would want another player, draft pick, cash, or something thrown in). I would even take a chance that Sam Young would be the guy if we could get some other talent at another position (PG).

All I am saying is that the way the NBA views Rudy and CDR versus the way we view them are very different. Rudy is two or three tiers up from CDR at this point and NBA execs would take a chance on Rudy's talent. They see CDR as a guy with limited upside. Read the scouting reports on CDR and it will say something like he doesn't play good D either (tries harder though), they say he isn't that athletic (don't believe that), has limited range (true), over dribbles (debatable), and generally has a low ceiling. I think CDR is underrated in all honesty, but he is no where near Rudy's talent level. Look, everyone thought CDR was a mid first round pick and he fell into the second round. that should tell you what NBA execs think of him. There really aren't many guys with the upside that Rudy possesses, it is debatable whether he will ever reach his potential. I don't disagree with that.

I think the other thing that will limit Gay's value is the new CBA, as it sounds like the salary cap is going lower. No one will pay Rudy what he thinks he is worth which will help us. The league will set his value and we won't have to overpay to keep him. It will be a matter of matching someone's offer which will be no better than what we owed him. 5/50 is probably slightly more than he will get as a restricted FA. He will not get the 5/60 he wants.

I am not saying we shouldn't look to trade Rudy, we just would need to get value for him. We don't need to get junk. Marc and OJ are the only two untouchables on this team to me. I would probably hang on to all the rooks as well, just to see how well they work out. Other than that, everyone is fair game.

By the way, look up how many teams gave up on Billups before he finally "got it." Rudy is 23 and was one of the top 3 guys in Vegas this summer at the Team USA tryouts. He has big upside, and I would be willing to see if he can reach it. I would give him a 2nd contract and see where we are when he is 26. Then, if he isn't what we want, trade him to a team that needs a scorer.

(11-04-2009 11:10 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 05:55 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 11:25 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 10:54 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ]the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

Agree - my point is that we won't get any trade value for gay - we will get less than what we have, so we might as well keep him and see how it works out. I hate his lack of D as well, but people stated that he was one of the best players in Vegas this summer - maybe that was a fluke and maybe not. The guy is still just 23. But, I am hacked at him too...

For the record I do watch basketball. The question is have you been watching CDR. He has been starting for the Nets. He jumper is just as good as Gay's, he takes the ball to the hole better than gay and can finish around the rim. He gets to the foul line too. Gay has been in the league for 3 year and he has never made that jump. Look at Roy, he made that jump to All Star last year. Rudy plays no D what so ever, he take bad shots. Hell OJ has done more in one season than Rudy. So lets not pretend to the fact he is only 23 and will get better. He is a 3rd option on any team that he plays for. CDR is very loved here. I also added Yi because of salaries. Sorry, the NBA wont allow me to have a the perfect trade. But I am open to hear who you think we should trade him for????

CDR wouldn't get off the bench for a good team. Put Rudy on the Nets this year and he averages 25 because he has to. I hope CDR becomes an all star, Ireally do, but someone has to score for the Nets and I don't see anyone other than Harris or Lee that can score for them.

There is NO way CDR's jumper is better than Rudy. CDR isn't a 3 point threat and Rudy is. I agree that Rudy doesn't play defense and that hacks me off too, but I would keep him as a 2nd or 3rd option.

If I was in the trade market, I would try to get Danny Granger from the Pacers, maybe Iguodala (maybe - as I stated earlier, he has some question marks around heart, etc., but to Fish's point above, he would probably be worth looking at, so I will recount my statement above) from the Sixers. I would take Battier back with all of these scorers we have. Maybe Caron Butler. Jeff Green from OKC. Thaddeus Young. I would look at a guy who could score 12-16 points a night and can play D. It would depend on who else we would have to thrown in, but I would look at all of those guys mentioned (not all are gettable, but I wouldn't settle for less than what I have put there and in some cases would want another player, draft pick, cash, or something thrown in). I would even take a chance that Sam Young would be the guy if we could get some other talent at another position (PG).

All I am saying is that the way the NBA views Rudy and CDR versus the way we view them are very different. Rudy is two or three tiers up from CDR at this point and NBA execs would take a chance on Rudy's talent. They see CDR as a guy with limited upside. Read the scouting reports on CDR and it will say something like he doesn't play good D either (tries harder though), they say he isn't that athletic (don't believe that), has limited range (true), over dribbles (debatable), and generally has a low ceiling. I think CDR is underrated in all honesty, but he is no where near Rudy's talent level. Look, everyone thought CDR was a mid first round pick and he fell into the second round. that should tell you what NBA execs think of him. There really aren't many guys with the upside that Rudy possesses, it is debatable whether he will ever reach his potential. I don't disagree with that.

I think the other thing that will limit Gay's value is the new CBA, as it sounds like the salary cap is going lower. No one will pay Rudy what he thinks he is worth which will help us. The league will set his value and we won't have to overpay to keep him. It will be a matter of matching someone's offer which will be no better than what we owed him. 5/50 is probably slightly more than he will get as a restricted FA. He will not get the 5/60 he wants.

I am not saying we shouldn't look to trade Rudy, we just would need to get value for him. We don't need to get junk. Marc and OJ are the only two untouchables on this team to me. I would probably hang on to all the rooks as well, just to see how well they work out. Other than that, everyone is fair game.

By the way, look up how many teams gave up on Billups before he finally "got it." Rudy is 23 and was one of the top 3 guys in Vegas this summer at the Team USA tryouts. He has big upside, and I would be willing to see if he can reach it. I would give him a 2nd contract and see where we are when he is 26. Then, if he isn't what we want, trade him to a team that needs a scorer.

I have a comparsion to use here. Lets look at one player they have both gone up against. Carmelo Anthony

CDR held Melo to 1-11 shooting in the first half and 22 pts all together and scored 19. Gay got lite up for 42 and scored 18 against him. Look I am not saying that Gay is better or worse. I am using this as example that Gay is not as good as everyone thinks. Yes, he is talented, but there are alot of talented players in the league. The difference between the great ones and the rest is off season work. I watch the Golden St game last night and have watched him for his first 3 years. He takes some the worst shots I have ever seen. He is a gifted athlete and with that being said. He takes bad shots. If he put his nose down and drove more. he would get better wide open pull up jumpers. IMO he is wasting his talent. But how many players have done the same thing???

Also, lets not pretend like Ru y Gay has been lighting it up for a playoff team. So, at this point and time they are both playing for sucky @$$ teams.

(11-05-2009 03:50 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 11:10 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-04-2009 05:55 PM)greektiger Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 11:25 PM)jtgavigan Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-03-2009 10:54 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: [ -> ]the point is Rudy is not worth even mediocre money...he plays no defense and has no drive...

Granger? He is one of the top players in the game...unknown, but still one of the better small forwards...and out of all the other players you listed, you ain't getting them with Rudy Gay as the keystone player on your side of the table...

And Vernon fails to understand Memphis basketball...much different than Los Angeles...Penny in his prime on an NBA team in Memphis would have had better attendance than any season they have been in Memphis...yeah, a Memphis player riding the pine isn't going to sell any tickets though...and winning will fill the place up regardless...and your not winning with Rudy Gay.

Agree - my point is that we won't get any trade value for gay - we will get less than what we have, so we might as well keep him and see how it works out. I hate his lack of D as well, but people stated that he was one of the best players in Vegas this summer - maybe that was a fluke and maybe not. The guy is still just 23. But, I am hacked at him too...

For the record I do watch basketball. The question is have you been watching CDR. He has been starting for the Nets. He jumper is just as good as Gay's, he takes the ball to the hole better than gay and can finish around the rim. He gets to the foul line too. Gay has been in the league for 3 year and he has never made that jump. Look at Roy, he made that jump to All Star last year. Rudy plays no D what so ever, he take bad shots. Hell OJ has done more in one season than Rudy. So lets not pretend to the fact he is only 23 and will get better. He is a 3rd option on any team that he plays for. CDR is very loved here. I also added Yi because of salaries. Sorry, the NBA wont allow me to have a the perfect trade. But I am open to hear who you think we should trade him for????

CDR wouldn't get off the bench for a good team. Put Rudy on the Nets this year and he averages 25 because he has to. I hope CDR becomes an all star, Ireally do, but someone has to score for the Nets and I don't see anyone other than Harris or Lee that can score for them.

There is NO way CDR's jumper is better than Rudy. CDR isn't a 3 point threat and Rudy is. I agree that Rudy doesn't play defense and that hacks me off too, but I would keep him as a 2nd or 3rd option.

If I was in the trade market, I would try to get Danny Granger from the Pacers, maybe Iguodala (maybe - as I stated earlier, he has some question marks around heart, etc., but to Fish's point above, he would probably be worth looking at, so I will recount my statement above) from the Sixers. I would take Battier back with all of these scorers we have. Maybe Caron Butler. Jeff Green from OKC. Thaddeus Young. I would look at a guy who could score 12-16 points a night and can play D. It would depend on who else we would have to thrown in, but I would look at all of those guys mentioned (not all are gettable, but I wouldn't settle for less than what I have put there and in some cases would want another player, draft pick, cash, or something thrown in). I would even take a chance that Sam Young would be the guy if we could get some other talent at another position (PG).

All I am saying is that the way the NBA views Rudy and CDR versus the way we view them are very different. Rudy is two or three tiers up from CDR at this point and NBA execs would take a chance on Rudy's talent. They see CDR as a guy with limited upside. Read the scouting reports on CDR and it will say something like he doesn't play good D either (tries harder though), they say he isn't that athletic (don't believe that), has limited range (true), over dribbles (debatable), and generally has a low ceiling. I think CDR is underrated in all honesty, but he is no where near Rudy's talent level. Look, everyone thought CDR was a mid first round pick and he fell into the second round. that should tell you what NBA execs think of him. There really aren't many guys with the upside that Rudy possesses, it is debatable whether he will ever reach his potential. I don't disagree with that.

I think the other thing that will limit Gay's value is the new CBA, as it sounds like the salary cap is going lower. No one will pay Rudy what he thinks he is worth which will help us. The league will set his value and we won't have to overpay to keep him. It will be a matter of matching someone's offer which will be no better than what we owed him. 5/50 is probably slightly more than he will get as a restricted FA. He will not get the 5/60 he wants.

I am not saying we shouldn't look to trade Rudy, we just would need to get value for him. We don't need to get junk. Marc and OJ are the only two untouchables on this team to me. I would probably hang on to all the rooks as well, just to see how well they work out. Other than that, everyone is fair game.

By the way, look up how many teams gave up on Billups before he finally "got it." Rudy is 23 and was one of the top 3 guys in Vegas this summer at the Team USA tryouts. He has big upside, and I would be willing to see if he can reach it. I would give him a 2nd contract and see where we are when he is 26. Then, if he isn't what we want, trade him to a team that needs a scorer.

I have a comparsion to use here. Lets look at one player they have both gone up against. Carmelo Anthony

CDR held Melo to 1-11 shooting in the first half and 22 pts all together and scored 19. Gay got lite up for 42 and scored 18 against him. Look I am not saying that Gay is better or worse. I am using this as example that Gay is not as good as everyone thinks. Yes, he is talented, but there are alot of talented players in the league. The difference between the great ones and the rest is off season work. I watch the Golden St game last night and have watched him for his first 3 years. He takes some the worst shots I have ever seen. He is a gifted athlete and with that being said. He takes bad shots. If he put his nose down and drove more. he would get better wide open pull up jumpers. IMO he is wasting his talent. But how many players have done the same thing???

Agreed, all I am saying is let's not trade the guy for junk like we did Pau (we got lucky with how Marc is turning out). I am tired of the "ole'" defense that Rudy plays (he would be a good bull fighter), but some of the trades people have proposed haven't been good, I don't think CDR will ever be a better player than Rudy. Just my opinion. I hope I am wrong because CDR was one of my favorite Tigers.

You put Gay on a team like the Rockets who play good team defense and his offense makes up for his lack of defense to a certain degree because other guys cover him. You put him in this lineup, and it just looks ugly.

I don't really disagree with anyone who wants to trade him, I really don't, I just don't want to see a firesale. If we can't get at least a player or players who can help, we might as well keep him and surround him with better players. We have no one in our top 6 who can play much D at all. Our best defenders, or potential defenders are rookies. They will get no calls, and haven't learned the nuances of the NBA game, so they will get torched until they figure it out.

So, we got what we got right now. Lionel has to figure out some way to get 8-10 more stops a game, some how, some way and we can win. We finally rebound and we can score, but we don't have chemistry and trust on the defensive end.

That trade with the Lakers will end up looking pretty good in the long run. They get Pau; we got Marc plus some draft picks.

(11-05-2009 06:53 PM)the other Greg Childers Wrote: [ -> ]That trade with the Lakers will end up looking pretty good in the long run. They get Pau; we got Marc plus some draft picks.

To people that actually follow the Grizzlies, yes.

To the national media who just wants to laugh at the Grizzlies, it will always be painted as a dumb move that allowed LA to win a championship.

The battier trade and the pau trade was dumb. I never liked the trades, and this was the reason i stopped going to the games so much. I knew they were going to suck it up for a few years after that mess. Yet i still follow the grizz, and i don't like the owner or the decisions he makes most of the time.