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Full Version: For National Health Insurance aka Obamacare, please read this...
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/health...odayspaper

Why would Congress give the drugmakers a free pass when the costs of Obamacare are estimated to be over $1 trillion dollars? Why stick the cost to the wealthy and middle class rather than maximize savings from the drug companies?

Do you agree or disagree with this? I get the feeling our Congress has there hands in the cookie jar, yet again.
this is just another reason why I firmly believe obamacare isn't about healthcare, but about control.
(08-06-2009 09:29 AM)oldblazer79 Wrote: [ -> ]this is just another reason why I firmly believe obamacare isn't about healthcare, but about control.

yup
(08-06-2009 09:29 AM)oldblazer79 Wrote: [ -> ]this is just another reason why I firmly believe obamacare isn't about healthcare, but about control.

Big grain of truth in that, although I'd phrase it as "It's about insurance regulation".

As to why on the pharmaceuticals, it's because Big Pharma spreads big dollars to everybody. Same reason the existing program does not allow the government to use the huge number of prescription drugs it buys to screw down their profit margin.
What I am waiting to see is an alternative plan from those opposed to what some have termed "Obamacare". I have a grave concern that the alternative to be pursued is no plan for America at all.

As I said earlier, I am being reminded of B'ham's experience in the late 1990s when two sides fought over the "Dome". The "anti" folks- "RAPS", claimed to have an alternative plan to accomplish the goal of a competitive convention center and insisted the "WRAPS" plan be voted down. It was defeated and that was the last we heard from "RAPS" about the alternative and we still have no "Dome" or any other competitive convention center. Is this the same tactic the "anti" forces have in mind for American health care? Just keep on doing the same as we have been doing while resisting change and hope for different results? We KNOW that America pays a higher bill for the medical care we have than other similar nations and we know that it works fine for those who can afford it. Can we see a better plan from those who oppose the president's suggested plan? SHOW AMERICA NOW!
I maintain the proposed plans are NOT about healthcare, but about control.
Specifically, how much control [over our daily lives] are we willing to give to the Federal Government.

For those viewing this through the 'government is the only thing that can save us' prism,
please answer this question:

If we are to believe bho and the dems 01-wingedeagle
If our current healthcare system is 'unsustainable',
why would we be allowed to 'keep our current health insurance if we like it'?
The short answer is, we won't be allowed to 'keep our current plans', and we're being lied to AGAIN.
At what point do the 'believers' realize 'obamaspeak' and 'obamaaction' are two different things?

when CNN Money turns on the 'plan'......................
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/eco...a.fortune/

5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform
If you read the fine print in the Congressional plans, you'll find that a lot of cherished aspects of the current system would disappear.
By Shawn Tully, editor at large
July 24, 2009

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- In promoting his health-care agenda, President Obama has repeatedly reassured Americans that they can keep their existing health plans -- and that the benefits and access they prize will be enhanced through reform.

A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy's Health committee, contradict the President's assurances. To be sure, it isn't easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.

If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company's Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests -- you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution.

In short, the Obama platform would mandate extremely full, expensive, and highly subsidized coverage -- including a lot of benefits people would never pay for with their own money -- but deliver it through a highly restrictive, HMO-style plan that will determine what care and tests you can and can't have. It's a revolution, all right, but in the wrong direction.

Let's explore the five freedoms that Americans would lose under Obamacare:

1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan

The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.

Today, many states require these "standard benefits packages" -- and they're a major cause for the rise in health-care costs. Every group, from chiropractors to alcohol-abuse counselors, do lobbying to get included. Connecticut, for example, requires reimbursement for hair transplants, hearing aids, and in vitro fertilization.

The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services. It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26. That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.

2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs

As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.

Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.

Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.

Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage

The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.

Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

4. Freedom to keep your existing plan

This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.

The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs (GE, Fortune 500) and Time Warners (TWX, Fortune 500) and most other big companies.

The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.

But read on.

The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

5. Freedom to choose your doctors

The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.

Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.

The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.

In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.

Companies would have the option of paying an 8% payroll tax into a fund that pays for coverage for Americans who aren't covered by their employers. It won't happen right away -- large companies must wait a couple of years before they opt out. But it will happen, since it's likely that the tax will rise a lot more slowly than corporate health-care costs, especially since they'll be lobbying Washington to keep the tax under control in the righteous name of job creation.

The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms. Call them the Five Endangered Freedoms.
(08-11-2009 12:20 AM)BAMANBLAZERFAN Wrote: [ -> ]What I am waiting to see is an alternative plan from those opposed to what some have termed "Obamacare". I have a grave concern that the alternative to be pursued is no plan for America at all.

Given the President's and certain high-ranking Democrats' desire to have the bill rammed through Congress before anyone can even read it, efforts by those that disagree have to be focused on stopping the current plan. The House Republicans have put out an alternative option, although it sucks too and would not have much of an impact on anything.

I have a question for you now. While the Senate is at least trying to come up with a bipartisan plan, do you really think Pelosi et al would ever let an alternative plan even come up in committee? Do you remember the outrage from the more liberal Democrats when she made some very minor concessions to the Blue Dog Democrats to even get that bill out of the last committee? They'd have her head if an alternative plan got any sort of consideration whatsoever.
(08-11-2009 05:44 AM)TMcCarty Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2009 12:20 AM)BAMANBLAZERFAN Wrote: [ -> ]What I am waiting to see is an alternative plan from those opposed to what some have termed "Obamacare". I have a grave concern that the alternative to be pursued is no plan for America at all.

Given the President's and certain high-ranking Democrats' desire to have the bill rammed through Congress before anyone can even read it, efforts by those that disagree have to be focused on stopping the current plan. The House Republicans have put out an alternative option, although it sucks too and would not have much of an impact on anything.

I have a question for you now. While the Senate is at least trying to come up with a bipartisan plan, do you really think Pelosi et al would ever let an alternative plan even come up in committee? Do you remember the outrage from the more liberal Democrats when she made some very minor concessions to the Blue Dog Democrats to even get that bill out of the last committee? They'd have her head if an alternative plan got any sort of consideration whatsoever.
This is the plan the collectivists have been waiting on.
They will not be satisfied until/unless we go 'single-payer' government healthcare system.

Main Entry: col·lec·tiv·ism
Function: noun
Date: 1857
1 : a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution;
also : a system marked by such control
2 : emphasis on collective rather than individual action or identity
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collectivism
I don't have any of those freedoms now, so what's the big deal? Under my UAB plan I have to see a primary care doctor before I go to a specialist. And all of my doctors have to be at UAB. And I don't get to choose what is covered. And if I lose my job I'm totally hosed. I'd gain more freedoms (the ability to buy private individual insurance and start my own business without the risk of rescission) than I'd lose.
you have the freedom to choose to NOT participate in the uab plan.
UAB offers more than one plan. You could always pay more for one of those plans that does not require you to see a primary doctor for referrals. One of the complaints of waste is that patients are too quick to see a specialist. Do you really think the government option won't require people to see a PMD first?
(08-11-2009 07:42 AM)oldblazer79 Wrote: [ -> ]you have the freedom to choose to NOT participate in the uab plan.

And then what? Blue Cross individual plan that won't cover me because I have a pre-existing condition?

(08-11-2009 09:07 AM)TMcCarty Wrote: [ -> ]UAB offers more than one plan. You could always pay more for one of those plans that does not require you to see a primary doctor for referrals. One of the complaints of waste is that patients are too quick to see a specialist. Do you really think the government option won't require people to see a PMD first?

I have no problem seeing my primary care doctor first, I wasn't the one that listed that as a bad thing in the original article.
(08-11-2009 07:32 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have any of those freedoms now, so what's the big deal? Under my UAB plan I have to see a primary care doctor before I go to a specialist. And all of my doctors have to be at UAB. And I don't get to choose what is covered. And if I lose my job I'm totally hosed. I'd gain more freedoms (the ability to buy private individual insurance and start my own business without the risk of rescission) than I'd lose.

I'm not sure about what part of UAB you work in, but the employees I know give the option of using Viva or BCBS. Further, right now your employer has the option to negotiate with various providers for the best deals and coverage or you can choose to go a different route and pay for your own insurance. Many people choose to do it. Or you could choose not to be insured, that is also your choice. Under what Obama eventually wants, and he has said many times what he wants, businesses and individuals will not have this option.

Even with the plan they're trying to push through a lot of the options will be gone. What happens when the government plan runs a deficit, because they can and will, and the insurance companies can't keep up?
this Nation has turned into a 'nanny' state,
and almost half the citizenry ARE a bunch of whiners.
Personal responsibility is a foreign concept.
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