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Full Version: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
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Things I have heard in the past three weeks from my Hillary Democrat Friends (And yes, I have friends and family who are misguided in their politics) is that their big beef with Obama, and the source of the static between Obama and Hillary is NOT the VP slot.... BUT the agreement that Obama would help Hillary retire her campaign debt, including the $11 million that Hillary loaned herself in the last part of the primaries.

During the meeting at Sen. Feinstein's home, this was a big part of the discussion.

Hillary would urge her delgates to support Obama if she had a role at the Convention and efforts were made by Obama to pay off her debt, through fundraisers with Obama, etc.

So far, nothing has happened.

If Obama had half a brain, he would write the check to Hillary TODAY or do whatever it takes to make Hillary happy...

Jesus H. Christ.. if Obama can't deal with Hillary and do the simple thing of paying her off, how can you trust him to handle real problems, such as Iran, Russia, Afghanistan, etc?

Because if he doesn't take care of Hillary its a 100% guarantee that somewhere. somehow, Hillary will screw him and do her best to cost him the election.

Nobody screws the Clintons.

Obama has over $50 million in the bank.. he can afford to pay Hillary off to get her out of the mess.
He's not allowed to donate any more than any other citizen. I suppose he could have held fundraisers with her but I think he seriously underestimated how many Clinton voters would abandon him.

WMD Owl Wrote:
If Obama had half a brain, he would write the check to Hillary TODAY or do whatever it takes to make Hillary happy...

Jesus H. Christ.. if Obama can't deal with Hillary and do the simple thing of paying her off, how can you trust him to handle real problems, such as Iran, Russia, Afghanistan, etc?

I didn't think we were supposed to negotiate with terrorists.

If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana



Then he would tax you and just take it all back...

Are you seriously saying someone should pay off another person's bad money management? Someone who couldn't run a campaign within the money they had collected?

Sounds an awful lot like bailing out companies that are poorly run, or giving welfare money to someone because they had another kid.

If I were Obama I'd tell her to take a hike, as it would be against my principals to pay off her debt in a campaign that I spent within my means.

mlb Wrote:
Are you seriously saying someone should pay off another person's bad money management?


You mean like the federal government mortgage bailout?

05-duck

mlb Wrote:
Are you seriously saying someone should pay off another person's bad money management? Someone who couldn't run a campaign within the money they had collected?

Sounds an awful lot like bailing out companies that are poorly run, or giving welfare money to someone because they had another kid.

If I were Obama I'd tell her to take a hike, as it would be against my principals to pay off her debt in a campaign that I spent within my means.


The argument is that many donors support Democratic candidates... and had Hillary won, they would have fulfilled pledges they made to her. Instead, they made additional pledges to Obama. When she ended her candidacy, she stopped getting those pledges fulfilled... and surely saved Obama $11mm in having to continue to deal with her (plus giving HIM those pledges).

I'm not sure I agree with it, but I see it. It's in the parties best interest to not have donors wait to see who the nominee is going to be before donating... Part of the 1970's era campaign finance bill..

WMD Owl Wrote:

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana



Then he would tax you and just take it all back...


He can't tax me when I'm living in Belize.

Rebel Wrote:

WMD Owl Wrote:

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana



Then he would tax you and just take it all back...


He can't tax me when I'm living in Belize.


01-ncaabbs 02-13-banana 04-bow 04-cheers You got that right. That money would be offshore in a heartbeat ... just like me!

BamaBlazer Wrote:
He's not allowed to donate any more than any other citizen. I suppose he could have held fundraisers with her but I think he seriously underestimated how many Clinton voters would abandon him.


I don't think that's true. I think there's a loophole that allows politicians to bribe each other within the ethics laws (you know, the ones they wrote). Also, I think that limit only applies if they accept public funding, and according to wikipedia, Obama, Clinton, and McCain all declined public finance.

Frankly, Presidential campaign finance law is undecipherable for me.

I don't think McCain opted out of public finance. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.

As far as paying her $11mm... there are all sorts of rules about WHAT the money can go for. Its a matter of shifting "DNC" funds to "campaign staff expenses" or something.

Rebel Wrote:

WMD Owl Wrote:

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.

Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana

Then he would tax you and just take it all back...

He can't tax me when I'm living in Belize.


Actually he can. He may not be able to enforce the tax, unless you happen to come back to the US to visit.

But unlike the citizens of every other country in the world (at least I beleive every country, and if not every then the exceptions are few), US citizens are taxed on worldwide income. The one possible exception might be countries with whom we have a tax treaty. I am researching this matter pretty diligently at present, as I may well be making a personal move in the near future.

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana


I wouldn't, unless he agreed to change some of his proposed policies. I have a choking price, but it's more than that.

Hambone10 Wrote:
I don't think McCain opted out of public finance. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.


If I remeber correctly, he did opt out, after first opting in but not taking any money. There were some questions about whether or not a loan he secured during his opt in time put him in violation of the FEC regulations now that he has opted out (I believe it had to do with whether or not he used the promise of federal funding as collateral), but since there currently aren't enough members on the FEC to form a quorum, the issue won't be settled until after the election.

I really think many of the Hilary voters are going to McCain because they just are not comfortable with Obama. Not because the are bitter that Clinton lost. While Obama and Clinton are similar on issues from a strategic view how they will proceed tactically are quite different. If you make $50,000 or more per year you will see that difference in your pocketbook. Clinton will go in that direction but not nearly as far. The other reason is Michelle's comment that she is proud of America for only the first time in her life. This is an intelligent, educated woman, not a bitter poor person. I think that speaks volumes for where Obama stands. I think that scares Clinton voters also.

burden Wrote:
I really think many of the Hilary voters are going to McCain because they just are not comfortable with Obama. Not because the are bitter that Clinton lost. While Obama and Clinton are similar on issues from a strategic view how they will proceed tactically are quite different. If you make $50,000 or more per year you will see that difference in your pocketbook. Clinton will go in that direction but not nearly as far. The other reason is Michelle's comment that she is proud of America for only the first time in her life. This is an intelligent, educated woman, not a bitter poor person. I think that speaks volumes for where Obama stands. I think that scares Clinton voters also.


Do you have any justification for that $50,000 figure or did you just make it up? Every time I've heard Obama talk about increasing taxes, the figure has been 5 times that amount.

perunapower Wrote:
Do you have any justification for that $50,000 figure or did you just make it up? Every time I've heard Obama talk about increasing taxes, the figure has been 5 times that amount.


I don't know where the $50,000 came from, but the idea that Obama's tax increases will reach way below the stated target income levels is right conceptually for several reasons.

1. If you look at Obama's taxing and spending proposals, the tax changes don't produce enough revenues to support the spending changes, let alone close the deficit. Shutting down Iraq completely provides some savings, but not nearly enough to close the gap. Moreover, the Iraq effect isn't nearly as big as even the raw numbers would suggest because a significant portion of what is now considered Iraq spending (soldiers' salaries, meals, equipment maintenance) wouldn't go away entirely if we brought them home, although some declines (reservists' salaries) would occur. In short, his numbers don't add up. Is he going to tell some special interest to whom he pandered with the promise of a special program that Christmas isn't coming after all, or is he going to redefine the "rich" down to a lower level of income? If the latter, how low? Probably not $50,000; but to get the revenue he needs it's going to be a lot less than five times $50,000. Run the numbers, and two times $50,000 is more realistic.

2. The Obama proposal, like all proposals to tax the "rich," has one fatally flawed assumption. It assumes that those "rich" will respond by saying, "OK, my taxes went up, I'll just live on less." What they do say is, "Obama is raising taxes, where can I put my money to escape them?" What makes this more peverse is that the truly rich can do this and live off their assets, which do not constitute taxable income to them. The people who can't are those that are just getting ahead, who are still trying to pay for their house and their kids' college education and maybe retire a few student loans. Michelle Obama herself admitted this when she talked during the primary campaign about how hard it was for Barack and her to make ends meet and pay off their student loans when they were trying to live on what then would have been abut $250,000 in Chicago. Funny how that same number means "rich" when Barack is talking about other peoples' incomes, but "poor" when Michelle talks about themselves. The tax rate increases will fall short of the projected revenues, because the assumptions regarding investment income won't happen because current levels and types of investment will change in response to tax changes. You see this with capital gains--raise the rates, tax revenues decrease; lower the rates, tax revenues increase--that's the historic pattern.

3. Moving investments away from things that get taxed inevitably means that fewer jobs get created. There's just no other possible result. Those people making $50,000 are right in the crosshairs on this one. The good news is your taxes are lower; the bad news is you don't have a job. Doesn't sound like a win to me. This also means that nationwide taxable income is less, so overall tax revenues are less, so you have to cancel spending programs that were promised to special interests, or you have to redefine "rich" down to a lower level.

4. Consider the case of your doctor. He finds out that tax rates are going up on people in his income bracket. He can go home and tell his wife, "Taxes are going up, so we need to live on less." Or he can fire a nurse. Or he can raise what he charges you when you go to see him. That doesn't really affect you directly, because your insurance pays it. Or maybe insurance just pays up to a certain amount, and you have to pay the rest, so it does affect you. And the insurance company spreads that cost out over everyone, and gets it back in premiums, so in the end everybody pays your doctor's tax increase. And that includes lots of people making less than $50,000. So your doc has three options. One of them has the "rich" paying more taxes. The other two take it out on people in the $50,000 range. Which one do you think he picks?

5. We are in a battle for world economic supremacy. In a world where a single weapon can devastate a huge city, the great powers of the future will be great economic powers rather than great military powers. Having the strongest military in the world is still prudent, as long as we can do so, but it doesn't guarantee success or prosperity. The best thing we can do to make life better for those making $50,000 a year, indeed for everyone, is to win the economic battle. Perot understood this, but I don't think any presidential candidate since has. We are not in a closed system, where the only consideration is taking money from our "rich" to pay our "poor." If we try to take too much from the "rich" they'll choose to be rich elsewhere. If we raise taxes on corporations, and Ireland lowers them, then some corporations are going to locate in Ireland rather than here. If we raise taxes on capital gains and Germany eliminates taxes on capital gains, then some people are going to invest in Germany rather than here. That means Ireland and Germany also get jobs and export sales that we don't, and we get to import things from Ireland and Germany. The same doesn't exactly apply to high income individuals because the US has this policy of taxing on worldwide income, but they can find ways to get income sheltered through offshore corporations. Won't happen in every case, of course, but if it happens in enough cases to cost us 1 or 2 percent growth each year, that will hurt big time over the years.

Well said 69... agree 100%. As usual, you are much more considered and articulate than I

jh Wrote:

Hambone10 Wrote:
I don't think McCain opted out of public finance. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.


If I remeber correctly, he did opt out, after first opting in but not taking any money. There were some questions about whether or not a loan he secured during his opt in time put him in violation of the FEC regulations now that he has opted out (I believe it had to do with whether or not he used the promise of federal funding as collateral), but since there currently aren't enough members on the FEC to form a quorum, the issue won't be settled until after the election.


I've read articles recently talking about how McCain has more money to spend because he's about to get $80mm in public funds while Obama won't. Implying that McCain (like ALL rich men) is going to buy the election. Nothing is said about the fact that Obama has already spent more than twice what McCain has, and can raise and spend more than the $80mm McCain can spend. I recall the issue you are describing... but I also recall that Obama initially said he would opt in... as did McCain... and then Obama opted out saying the rules were somehow unfair.

Yesterday was nothing but Hillary "whoring" for $11 million.

She was a "good girl"... She made a "nice speech"... but I could tell she didn't mean it.

She stopped the Roll Call and called for "unity"

Now the DNC/Obama better pay up..

Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:

perunapower Wrote:
Do you have any justification for that $50,000 figure or did you just make it up? Every time I've heard Obama talk about increasing taxes, the figure has been 5 times that amount.


I don't know where the $50,000 came from, but the idea that Obama's tax increases will reach way below the stated target income levels is right conceptually for several reasons.

1. If you look at Obama's taxing and spending proposals, the tax changes don't produce enough revenues to support the spending changes, let alone close the deficit. Shutting down Iraq completely provides some savings, but not nearly enough to close the gap. Moreover, the Iraq effect isn't nearly as big as even the raw numbers would suggest because a significant portion of what is now considered Iraq spending (soldiers' salaries, meals, equipment maintenance) wouldn't go away entirely if we brought them home, although some declines (reservists' salaries) would occur. In short, his numbers don't add up. Is he going to tell some special interest to whom he pandered with the promise of a special program that Christmas isn't coming after all, or is he going to redefine the "rich" down to a lower level of income? If the latter, how low? Probably not $50,000; but to get the revenue he needs it's going to be a lot less than five times $50,000. Run the numbers, and two times $50,000 is more realistic.

2. The Obama proposal, like all proposals to tax the "rich," has one fatally flawed assumption. It assumes that those "rich" will respond by saying, "OK, my taxes went up, I'll just live on less." What they do say is, "Obama is raising taxes, where can I put my money to escape them?" What makes this more peverse is that the truly rich can do this and live off their assets, which do not constitute taxable income to them. The people who can't are those that are just getting ahead, who are still trying to pay for their house and their kids' college education and maybe retire a few student loans. Michelle Obama herself admitted this when she talked during the primary campaign about how hard it was for Barack and her to make ends meet and pay off their student loans when they were trying to live on what then would have been abut $250,000 in Chicago. Funny how that same number means "rich" when Barack is talking about other peoples' incomes, but "poor" when Michelle talks about themselves. The tax rate increases will fall short of the projected revenues, because the assumptions regarding investment income won't happen because current levels and types of investment will change in response to tax changes. You see this with capital gains--raise the rates, tax revenues decrease; lower the rates, tax revenues increase--that's the historic pattern.

3. Moving investments away from things that get taxed inevitably means that fewer jobs get created. There's just no other possible result. Those people making $50,000 are right in the crosshairs on this one. The good news is your taxes are lower; the bad news is you don't have a job. Doesn't sound like a win to me. This also means that nationwide taxable income is less, so overall tax revenues are less, so you have to cancel spending programs that were promised to special interests, or you have to redefine "rich" down to a lower level.

4. Consider the case of your doctor. He finds out that tax rates are going up on people in his income bracket. He can go home and tell his wife, "Taxes are going up, so we need to live on less." Or he can fire a nurse. Or he can raise what he charges you when you go to see him. That doesn't really affect you directly, because your insurance pays it. Or maybe insurance just pays up to a certain amount, and you have to pay the rest, so it does affect you. And the insurance company spreads that cost out over everyone, and gets it back in premiums, so in the end everybody pays your doctor's tax increase. And that includes lots of people making less than $50,000. So your doc has three options. One of them has the "rich" paying more taxes. The other two take it out on people in the $50,000 range. Which one do you think he picks?

5. We are in a battle for world economic supremacy. In a world where a single weapon can devastate a huge city, the great powers of the future will be great economic powers rather than great military powers. Having the strongest military in the world is still prudent, as long as we can do so, but it doesn't guarantee success or prosperity. The best thing we can do to make life better for those making $50,000 a year, indeed for everyone, is to win the economic battle. Perot understood this, but I don't think any presidential candidate since has. We are not in a closed system, where the only consideration is taking money from our "rich" to pay our "poor." If we try to take too much from the "rich" they'll choose to be rich elsewhere. If we raise taxes on corporations, and Ireland lowers them, then some corporations are going to locate in Ireland rather than here. If we raise taxes on capital gains and Germany eliminates taxes on capital gains, then some people are going to invest in Germany rather than here. That means Ireland and Germany also get jobs and export sales that we don't, and we get to import things from Ireland and Germany. The same doesn't exactly apply to high income individuals because the US has this policy of taxing on worldwide income, but they can find ways to get income sheltered through offshore corporations. Won't happen in every case, of course, but if it happens in enough cases to cost us 1 or 2 percent growth each year, that will hurt big time over the years.



You've hit the nail on the head for my problems with Obama. His solutions make TONS of sense on paper, and sound great. The problem comes when you put pencil to paper. In MANY of his proposals... particularly the most important ones like healthcare... You simply can't get there from here...

When you compound the problem by knowing that "the rich", or at least the ULTRA rich (remember, Michelle herself lamented how tough it was to pay school loans and raise 2 kids in Chicago on 250k/year) will react to tax increases by adjusting their behaviour to avoid the increase... Where is even the EXPECTED money going to come from?? the ONLY answer is even higher taxes (which once again, won't impact the people the hikes are intended to impact) or by lowering the brackets.

The solution to healthcare is for this country to decide that insurance is insurance... and everyone (meaning all citizens or legal workers I guess) gets at least THIS level of insurance. We use current corporate America as the model, and decide that there are 250mm people LEGAL to work in this country (whether or not they do) and that the premium is $7,000 per person per year. At least we know what the cost is. From there, we decide that businesses will either be taxed to pay the premiums, or have them pay them and then deduct the expense. The cost of medicaid/medicare ofsets much of this.

Companies can offer premium packages... which I'm sure the better ones will, or employees can purchase upgrades/add ons as we already generally do. I think most companies will offer exactly what they currently offer. Those that don't currently offer benefits will offer only the mandated amounts, and medicaid/medicare will pay for it.

Those not eligible for insurance will generally only be those here illegally who have illegal jobs. They can be handled as they are now... as a drain on the system... but the drain will not be compounded by those here legally without insurance... and will serve as less of an incentive to be here illegally.

The figure will be big... but its time we admitted we have a problem and deal with it honestly as opposed to constantly talking about universal healthcare only to fail to come anywhere near getting it and blaming "the other side" for the failure.

Too many politicians are interested in blaming someone for how we got here, and not interested in simply saying we're here... what do we do.

Rebel Wrote:

WMD Owl Wrote:

Rebel Wrote:

BGSUalum1987 Wrote:
If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.


Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana



Then he would tax you and just take it all back...


He can't tax me when I'm living in Belize.


Wrong...You now have to pay a tax on assets you take out of the country during expatriation. I guess you could find a way to sneak out the cash like the Uberich do.

Hambone10 Wrote:
I've read articles recently talking about how McCain has more money to spend because he's about to get $80mm in public funds while Obama won't. Implying that McCain (like ALL rich men) is going to buy the election. Nothing is said about the fact that Obama has already spent more than twice what McCain has, and can raise and spend more than the $80mm McCain can spend. I recall the issue you are describing... but I also recall that Obama initially said he would opt in... as did McCain... and then Obama opted out saying the rules were somehow unfair.

I did a little more reading & think I understand my confusion - the campaign finance laws are broken into two separate parts (one for the primary and one for the general election). The confusion over whether McCain was in or out of the public financing system was just for the primary election - it looks like he always intended to accept public financing for the general election.

Campaign finance laws are hard.

Hambone10 Wrote:
You've hit the nail on the head for my problems with Obama. His solutions make TONS of sense on paper, and sound great. The problem comes when you put pencil to paper. In MANY of his proposals... particularly the most important ones like healthcare... You simply can't get there from here...

When you compound the problem by knowing that "the rich", or at least the ULTRA rich (remember, Michelle herself lamented how tough it was to pay school loans and raise 2 kids in Chicago on 250k/year) will react to tax increases by adjusting their behaviour to avoid the increase... Where is even the EXPECTED money going to come from?? the ONLY answer is even higher taxes (which once again, won't impact the people the hikes are intended to impact) or by lowering the brackets.

The solution to healthcare is for this country to decide that insurance is insurance... and everyone (meaning all citizens or legal workers I guess) gets at least THIS level of insurance. We use current corporate America as the model, and decide that there are 250mm people LEGAL to work in this country (whether or not they do) and that the premium is $7,000 per person per year. At least we know what the cost is. From there, we decide that businesses will either be taxed to pay the premiums, or have them pay them and then deduct the expense. The cost of medicaid/medicare ofsets much of this.

Companies can offer premium packages... which I'm sure the better ones will, or employees can purchase upgrades/add ons as we already generally do. I think most companies will offer exactly what they currently offer. Those that don't currently offer benefits will offer only the mandated amounts, and medicaid/medicare will pay for it.

Those not eligible for insurance will generally only be those here illegally who have illegal jobs. They can be handled as they are now... as a drain on the system... but the drain will not be compounded by those here legally without insurance... and will serve as less of an incentive to be here illegally.

The figure will be big... but its time we admitted we have a problem and deal with it honestly as opposed to constantly talking about universal healthcare only to fail to come anywhere near getting it and blaming "the other side" for the failure.

Too many politicians are interested in blaming someone for how we got here, and not interested in simply saying we're here... what do we do.


I would not agree that Obama's proposals make sense on paper, but that may be more of a semantic difference. I think we may be saying the same thing two different ways, probably because to me "on paper" includes what is spelled out in details, and if the details don't add up then the plan doesn't add up. I think Obama gives great speeches, but I don't see much steak to go with the sizzle.

What you've described for health care is pretty close to what France has. I've been a consumer in their system and it works. Last time I checked, their number is actually about $3400 per person per year. They obviously do a better job of cost containment than we do. Also, their basic plan is not as good as what we would typically expect in a corporate plan. But they allow the kinds of upgrades you mention, and that means that the average French employee has a health care plan that is comparable to the average US employee. The government portion of theirs is paid for out of social security, by the way; but then, they don't maintain this charade that there is some kind of metaphysical social security trust fund out there.

yes... I agree our differences are semantics... Saying you want to lower everyones premiums and streamline the process while delivering quality healthcare to everyone looks great on paper... but when you put pencil to paper (my term meaning do the math, as opposed to writing it down... sorry) it doesn't add up... and I think I pulled the $7,000 figure out of thin air.
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