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No one here has broached the subject of Russia's invasion of Georgia and our lack of response to it. Yeah, we blustered and jawed a little but that's about all... thank God. Frankly, I don't see much we can do other than talk and posture, not in any real world sense. We have far too many troops committed elsewhere, our equipment levels are low and we're way out of position to confront a Russian army attacking on their own border with short supply lines and easy access to reinforcements and logistic support. Yeah, we could use air assets... and they would not be enough to do more than poke a stick into the anthill.

Firedoglake (which is generally a left wing/progressive blog site) just posted probably the best and most unvarnished analysis I've read since the invasion started. Read this, it's damn good and frankly holds very little slant in terms of liberal/conservative American positions. It looks to me like a very solid write up of where things stand. It's uncomfortable, unpalatable, ugly, and accurate to my eyes. Check it out.

What scares me most is what happens if Russia is able to take Georgia back with few repercussions. I have to believe that they'd move on the Ukraine, and things wouldn't be much different. We could very easily be looking at the growth of a world threat on the order of Hitler... and I'm not sure what we're going to be able to do about it unless we're willing to resort to war to the knife. Not a good situation, not at all.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/11/cuttin...more-29804

Cutting to the chase on Western/Russian Relations
By: Ian Welsh Monday August 11, 2008 4:00 pm


All the diplomatic chatter on the Georgian/Russian war from the West has been Kabuki. Georgia's part of Russia's sphere of influence, and Russia will do what it wants with it. This is part of the price of a couple of decades of policy towards Russia. There is no love in Russian political circles for the US, and very little for the EU. There is even less love for NATO. Nearly 20 years ago Gorbachev agreed with George Bush I not to use the Red army to crush dissent and rebellion in the Warsaw Pact states. Let there be no doubt that the Red army was perfectly capable of doing so. In exchange George I agreed that NATO would not expand to former Warsaw Pact countries.

NATO, the US and Europe broke their word. They expanded NATO further and further, into what Russia considers its buffer states, states which cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of potential enemies. Russian geopolitics has been obsessed with controlling those states for centuries (along with getting a warm water port). This is not a short term, minor issue. It is at the heart of what Russia believes it needs to be defensible—lots and lots of space.

Next, US and Western policy towards Russia in the 90's was based around a shock therapy transition to a free market. The result of that was an actual decline in the Russian population. US neo-liberal economics applied to Russia killed millions of people. No exaggeration. It wasn't the only cause, but when you've promised the sky (and the free-marketers did) and the result is hell on earth, well, people remember that.

Then Serbia, a long term Russian ally was forcibly broken apart by NATO, a rebellious province turned into effectively a mini-state.

The color revolutions flooded minor border states such as Georgia with money and operatives and put in pro-Western, anti-Russian governments, leading one of my friends to observe acidly that "the US shouldn't buy countries it can't afford".

And meanwhile the US tells patent lies about wanting to put in ABM systems to protect against a non-existent Iranian missile threat and builds bases in as many ex-Russian Republics as it can, in what appears to the Kremlin to be an attempt to encircle Russia.

One can imagine the reaction if Latin American countries had joined the Warsaw Pact. Or if Canada, even today, were to install Russian ABMs to protect against the threat of North Korean nukes. Washington would know the ABM system could only be meant to be used against them. And as for a Russian led military pact enrolling members in Latin America, you can only imagine the apoplexy.

Russia feels surrounded, ill used and disrespected by the West and by the US in particular. It feels betrayed by NATO expansion. It observes that the only threat NATO expansion could be guarding against is obviously it, and takes the expansion as a direct threat.

Americans and Europeans need to think real hard about NATO expansion and continued encirclement of Russia. Imagine how you'd feel, how you'd react if the situation was reversed.

Imagine, more importantly, what you'd do if Georgia had been accepted into NATO. Let's say that the Russians invaded anyway (and yes, they might) what would you do if Georgia invoked the "one country is attacked, all countries are attacked" clause? Are you going to really go to war with Russia over Georgia? Really?

And are you sure Russia would back down? I don't, personally, think Putin and Medeved could survive a loss of such prestige.

Even in the current situation what's the US or NATO going to do? The only thing I can think of it could do would be to airlift in troops. What would Russia's response to that be? Well, one scenario is they'd attack everywhere the troops aren't, enfold them in a pocket and put them under siege, without firing at them (except "accidentally") until they eventually wound up repatriating them. Worst case, well worst case is war, with the bulk of the US army deployed in all the wrong places to do anything about it.

Russia's not Iraq. They're not militarily as strong as the US, but they also aren't deployed incorrectly. And they're bloody minded and willing to take huge casualties.

I bet NATO breaks. And if NATO doesn't, World War III.

Sure, Russia might back down. But she might not either.

Are you willing to risk it to stop Russia from having its own sphere of influence? To stop Russia from doing its own, slightly larger, Panama invasions?

The West has been pushing Russia into a corner for a long time. That's not smart. Russia's not the USSR, but it's not a joke power either. A war with Russia would be a real war, so we need to consider very carefully what situations we'd be willing to fight one with Russia. (Do recall Russia has plenty of nukes). If we aren't really willing to go to war over something, we shouldn't risk our credibility, or the chance of a war, by acting like we are.

And no, no one is willing to go to war for Georgia. That's not fair to Georgia, and they may have thought otherwise since they sent 2,000 troops to Iraq and are due reciprocal help. But the geopolitics are simple, Georgia was part of Russia or the USSR for 2 centuries. If Russia wants to slap them around, that's unfortunate, but there just isn't much we can do about it.

And there won't be for a long time. Because if you want to have leverage over Russia you have to have, not so much military leverage (they are not the types to be intimidated) but economic leverage. And as long as oil is riding high, they have it and we need it, well the economic leverage mostly runs the other way.

In the 90s the West's could shove Russia around because they needed the West's economic health. Not any more. Power comes in many forms, and when you don't take care of the most fundamental base of power - your economy, you lose the ability to tell other countries what to do.

Russia didn't like being a chump. And eventually they decided to start being taken seriously again.

"Oh, so the Chechens won a war against us. Let's find a pretext to do his all over again, and let's win the war even if it means depopulating their capital by 90%."

Russia's quite willing to do whatever it takes to be taken seriously by everyone around them. So Georgia will take it on the chin. Even if oil wasn't over $100/barrel we might not be able to convince them otherwise. But with the US economy trashed and Russia riding high, there isn't any leverage at all. And Georgia will pay part of the price.
Georgia's plight should be an object lesson for the other former Soviet states.

On the whole, the article is not a bad analysis of the situation.

Have no idea where you're getting "world threat on the order of Hitler" from though Band Dad.

We, in the west, like to think of these places (like Georgia and You-Pick-istan) as solid, democratic, sovereign nations, but unfortunately they aren't really there yet. They are still, in-effect, former Soviet pseudo-states. This makes dealing with them, and their dealings with us (the west), kinda tricksey with the Bear at their backside.

Somebody just dropped the football this time. 02-13-domokun
The Hitler thing comes from how things grew over time, and from the fact that Putin is a hard-core KGB apparatchik, GWB's gaze into his soul not notwithstanding.

Russia is going to retake Georgia, and it's going to suck to be Georgian, same as it does to be a Chechen in today's Russia. Once this happens and all the verbal protests and armwaving and ineffectual international sanctions are done, Putin is going to say to himself "You know, that wasn't bad at all", and he's going to decide he wants the Ukraine back - and they're going to take it if they want it.

We won't do, or be able to do, diddlysquat about it. We've encouraged the growth of democracy in these states, we've based our planes and troops there, we've given lip service to supporting them - and when the chips are down we're going to blink because we don't have the assets to contest Russia on their back porch and because when it gets right down to it we won't be willing to invest the blood and treasure to prevent it.

See Hitler, Adolph, referencing the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia. Putin is both shrewd and powermad, and he's got a country behind him who has begun to think of the USSR's empire as the good old days.

We'll see how things go. I pray that this won't develop as I fear it will.
Would it surprise you if I, a professed loyalist to King George II, actually agreed with you with respect to his Majesty's policy toward Putin? Because I do. His soulsearching gaze needs work! 02-13-domokun

If we and our allies in the west had taken a harder line with Russia earlier, this, I think, could have potentially been prevented. As it is now, I don't think there is a damn thing we can do about it.

The only parallel to Hitler that I see is his, as you say, looking for a pretense for offensive action. I think Putin's potential activity ends at the traditional borders with Western Europe however.
This is exactly why we need to get out of Iraq now and start focusing our military to be ready for a real war. We've wasted capital on Iraq and have accomplished nothing, and now when it's about to get to the point we really need our big stick, it's laying broken on the ground. I wouldn't be surprised if China took note and took a greater interest in Southeast Asian countries much like Russia has in Eastern Europe. This is a problem that having 15,000 nuclear warheads won't solve.

Quote:
And no, no one is willing to go to war for Georgia. That's not fair to Georgia, and they may have thought otherwise since they sent 2,000 troops to Iraq and are due reciprocal help.

I think this is going to hurt us more than anyone thinks as well.

We have squandered and misspent our reputation, world standing, and political capital under this administration to a mind-boggling degree.
only to the american political left.

oldblazer79 Wrote:
only to the american political left.


what does our political beliefs have to do with how the world views us? regardless of your personal political opinions on george bush, iraq, etc., it is a fact that around the world we aren't looked up to as we used to be. opinion poll after poll has been done to show it.

here's a nice article from Time that basically says the same things as the original post: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...ml?cnn=yes

mixduptransistor Wrote:

oldblazer79 Wrote:
only to the american political left.


what does our political beliefs have to do with how the world views us? regardless of your personal political opinions on george bush, iraq, etc., it is a fact that around the world we aren't looked up to as we used to be. opinion poll after poll has been done to show it.

here's a nice article from Time that basically says the same things as the original post: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...ml?cnn=yes

03-melodramatic
Time. no agenda there03-lmfao
the world heh,
then tell me why both Canada and France elected pm's more closely aligned with us.

France hasn't exactly jumped in to send troops to Iraq since Sarkozy was elected have they? Regardless, that is all off-topic from the original post.

oldblazer79 Wrote:

mixduptransistor Wrote:

oldblazer79 Wrote:
only to the american political left.


what does our political beliefs have to do with how the world views us? regardless of your personal political opinions on george bush, iraq, etc., it is a fact that around the world we aren't looked up to as we used to be. opinion poll after poll has been done to show it.

here's a nice article from Time that basically says the same things as the original post: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...ml?cnn=yes

03-melodramatic
Time. no agenda there03-lmfao
the world heh,
then tell me why both Canada and France elected pm's more closely aligned with us.


Well, Canada doesn't vote for Prime Minister and France has a President, but that's beside the point I guess if you're from the McCain School of Foreign Relations.

Time Magazine isn't exactly Mother Jones either.

The USA has for decades been the world standard bearer for capital D Democracy. We've stood up for human rights. We've expended our blood and treasure fighting totalitarian regimes (well... when they weren't on our side anyhow).

In the wake of 9/11 there was tremendous world sympathy for the U.S., both among our long time friends and countries who are normally ambivalent at best.

Kidnapping people off the streets of foreign countries, flying them halfway around the world, locking them up without benefit of trial, and torturing them has tarnished our name. It makes it difficult for us to tell others they're in the wrong when we're doing things we've condemned others for in the past.

mixduptransistor Wrote:

oldblazer79 Wrote:

mixduptransistor Wrote:

oldblazer79 Wrote:
only to the american political left.


what does our political beliefs have to do with how the world views us? regardless of your personal political opinions on george bush, iraq, etc., it is a fact that around the world we aren't looked up to as we used to be. opinion poll after poll has been done to show it.

here's a nice article from Time that basically says the same things as the original post: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...ml?cnn=yes

03-melodramatic
Time. no agenda there03-lmfao
the world heh,
then tell me why both Canada and France elected pm's more closely aligned with us.


Well, Canada doesn't vote for Prime Minister and France has a President, but that's beside the point I guess if you're from the McCain School of Foreign Relations.

technically, the canadian pm is the leader of the party with the most reps. in the house of commons.
how are those reps. chosen?
therefore, Canadians know in advance who their prime minister will be based upon the outcome of the election.
03-shhhh just don't tell CNN http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/0...index.html
or USA Today http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km..._n16013507
technically, the US electorate doesn't elect our president, either.

you are correct on france. in my haste to respond, I erred. upon further review, I should have used 'leadership' or 'head of state' instead.
my apologies.

nice deflection, but you still didn't address my salient point.
and let's not forget the new German chancellor, Merkel.

btw,
I used to read Time on a regular basis. I even had a subscription at one time, until I realized (circa 1985) the mag. had an agenda.
I didn't need to pay for news with a left leaning slant. If I wanted that, all I needed to do was tune into the free nightly network news.
Some things never change.

Is the US hated around the world? Yes... I can confirm that having traveled around the world (literally) in the past few years and after having lived in Latin America for the past 11+ years. Here is the news brief for you though. People hated the US before Bush came into office. I know, it is hard to believe but upon arriving in Latin America 11 years ago I was warned about the anti-US sentiment and it existed then and it continues to exist.

Part of this is jealousy and part is what I attribute to the under dog effect. I am not a big fan of US professional sports but occasionally I will watch a game with someone who is. Inevitably I will ask that person who is favored to win, they will tell me, and I will pull for the underdog. This happens a good bit with the US right now. People pull against the favored team and for the underdog. Also, in previous decades people had to either align themselves with the US or Russia. Now there is a perception that there is one super power - the US (reality is that China is certainly a super power). People can either be for the US or not and it doesn't matter. In previous decades most every country was aligned with one of those two.

We have had some snafus in foreign policy but our perception around the world was already poor. People have a feeling that it is the US's turn to suffer some. That has been the opinion. Mentioning 9/11, there was a common believe that the US deserved 9/11 and I had actually had some people say it was good to see the US suffer for a change.

BTR Wrote:
Is the US hated around the world? Yes... I can confirm that having traveled around the world (literally) in the past few years and after having lived in Latin America for the past 11+ years. Here is the news brief for you though. People hated the US before Bush came into office. I know, it is hard to believe but upon arriving in Latin America 11 years ago I was warned about the anti-US sentiment and it existed then and it continues to exist.

Part of this is jealousy and part is what I attribute to the under dog effect. I am not a big fan of US professional sports but occasionally I will watch a game with someone who is. Inevitably I will ask that person who is favored to win, they will tell me, and I will pull for the underdog. This happens a good bit with the US right now. People pull against the favored team and for the underdog. Also, in previous decades people had to either align themselves with the US or Russia. Now there is a perception that there is one super power - the US (reality is that China is certainly a super power). People can either be for the US or not and it doesn't matter. In previous decades most every country was aligned with one of those two.

We have had some snafus in foreign policy but our perception around the world was already poor. People have a feeling that it is the US's turn to suffer some. That has been the opinion. Mentioning 9/11, there was a common believe that the US deserved 9/11 and I had actually had some people say it was good to see the US suffer for a change.


I agree that people around the world have hated us since before bush, you have to add the tactics our "allies" or people we have supported has caused a large portion of this hate.

Lies.

The US is not as hated throughout the world as you lefties would want us to believe. I met a group of guys in a hotel bar in Bremen a few months ago. They heard I was American when I ordered a drink and invited me over. They love America, said as much, and we ended up hanging out, bar hopping and talking until 3am (when my german and my new friend's english on weight of fine beer and liquor finally gave out 02-13-domokun ). I had to keep foisting money on them as they kept trying to buy all my drinks!

Politics came up. They were all screaming Obama fanboys (imagine that, German Obama fanboys...) and couldn't believe it when I told them I was voting for McCain. Didn't hurt the evening any though. We all still got liquored up and had a high-ole time.

This is just a vignette of my experience. I have also found Mexicans, Canadians, Brits, French, Italians, Belgians, Danes (Danes love everybody, God love 'em!), Dutch, Hungarians, Austrians, etc. with an amiable view of americans in the general sense.

I don't think I have had a political discussion with a foreigner where they didn't have this or that policy of america to question, but I've had little discussion here among my compatriots that wasn't essentially the same.

Over-read, under-informed, tin foil hat wearing*, busybody liberals need to get out more and breath in the smog and ozone. There is more to life, and the world, than you can find in the New York Times and on communist blogs on the intarwebs.

*EDIT: I forgot 'Hyperbole wielding, Prius driving...'

BlazingGoat Wrote:
Lies.

The US is not as hated throughout the world as you lefties would want us to believe. I met a group of guys in a hotel bar in Bremen a few months ago. They heard I was American when I ordered a drink and invited me over. They love America, said as much, and we ended up hanging out, bar hopping and talking until 3am (when my german and my new friend's english on weight of fine beer and liquor finally gave out 02-13-domokun ). I had to keep foisting money on them as they kept trying to buy all my drinks!

Politics came up. They were all screaming Obama fanboys (imagine that, German Obama fanboys...) and couldn't believe it when I told them I was voting for McCain. Didn't hurt the evening any though. We all still got liquored up and had a high-ole time.

This is just a vignette of my experience. I have also found Mexicans, Canadians, Brits, French, Italians, Belgians, Danes (Danes love everybody, God love 'em!), Dutch, Hungarians, Austrians, etc. with an amiable view of americans in the general sense.

I don't think I have had a political discussion with a foreigner where they didn't have this or that policy of america to question, but I've had little discussion here among my compatriots that wasn't essentially the same.

Over-read, under-informed, tin foil hat wearing*, busybody liberals need to get out more and breath in the smog and ozone. There is more to life, and the world, than you can find in the New York Times and on communist blogs on the intarwebs.

*EDIT: I forgot 'Hyperbole wielding, Prius driving...'



What the hell is was that?

My favorite part is the end, if you don't agree with me, it means you are a communist!

Because we all know that meeting a few brits at a bar is the same thing is actually living outside of the US for 1/3 of your life. :)
This whole thing between Russia and Georgia shows what happens when you let lobbyists have so much influence. Something brought to a whole new level by the disastrous Bush presidency, and something McBush obviously wants to continue.
Basically, it looks like that McBush's foreign policy adviser (who was the chief lobbyist for Georgia until this spring, well after he took his current position on McBush's campaign staff) convinced his former employers that the US would have their back if they started sh!t with Russia. Bad move Georgia. They listened to their lobbyist in Mcbush's campaign instead of listening to the actual US government who had been telling them since July to not use force against Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.

Lou-A-B Wrote:

BlazingGoat Wrote:
Lies.

The US is not as hated throughout the world as you lefties would want us to believe. I met a group of guys in a hotel bar in Bremen a few months ago. They heard I was American when I ordered a drink and invited me over. They love America, said as much, and we ended up hanging out, bar hopping and talking until 3am (when my german and my new friend's english on weight of fine beer and liquor finally gave out 02-13-domokun ). I had to keep foisting money on them as they kept trying to buy all my drinks!

Politics came up. They were all screaming Obama fanboys (imagine that, German Obama fanboys...) and couldn't believe it when I told them I was voting for McCain. Didn't hurt the evening any though. We all still got liquored up and had a high-ole time.

This is just a vignette of my experience. I have also found Mexicans, Canadians, Brits, French, Italians, Belgians, Danes (Danes love everybody, God love 'em!), Dutch, Hungarians, Austrians, etc. with an amiable view of americans in the general sense.

I don't think I have had a political discussion with a foreigner where they didn't have this or that policy of america to question, but I've had little discussion here among my compatriots that wasn't essentially the same.

Over-read, under-informed, tin foil hat wearing*, busybody liberals need to get out more and breath in the smog and ozone. There is more to life, and the world, than you can find in the New York Times and on communist blogs on the intarwebs.

*EDIT: I forgot 'Hyperbole wielding, Prius driving...'



What the hell is was that?

My favorite part is the end, if you don't agree with me, it means you are a communist!


What that "is was" was an example of a real life encounter with real human beings that live in another country. Something that I have on a regular basis. You should try it sometime.

P.S. I changed my mind. If you don't agree with me you aren't a communist, just wrong. 05-stirthepot

P.P.S. I get the feeling that BTR has spent more time in latin america than me so i'll somewhat defer to him there, but don't tell me about Western Europe, I used to live there! 02-13-domokun

BlazingGoat Wrote:
P.P.S. I get the feeling that BTR has spent more time in latin america than me so i'll somewhat defer to him there, but don't tell me about Western Europe, I used to live there! 02-13-domokun


I know nothing about Europe... they talk funny :)

The best we can get out of the Georgia situation is a cease fire with Russian troops setting up shop in western and central Georgia a la Germany in the Sudetanland in 1938. Don't forget that a major oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea wells at Baku runs through Georgia to its west coast port on the Black Sea. If Russia shuts that down, does the price of gasoline here jump? If so, how high? What role would such an event play in our election if it happens before November?
We sent that C-17 into GA with "humanitarian aid" as a test of Russian intent. How many more loads of goods will Russia "permit"? What does the west (mainly the USA) do if Russia decides on a new "Berlin Blockade" in the Caucasus? Georgia is not just a few air miles from friendly supply points like Berlin was.

BAMANBLAZERFAN Wrote:
The best we can get out of the Georgia situation is a cease fire with Russian troops setting up shop in western and central Georgia a la Germany in the Sudetanland in 1938. Don't forget that a major oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea wells at Baku runs through Georgia to its west coast port on the Black Sea. If Russia shuts that down, does the price of gasoline here jump? If so, how high? What role would such an event play in our election if it happens before November?
We sent that C-17 into GA with "humanitarian aid" as a test of Russian intent. How many more loads of goods will Russia "permit"? What does the west (mainly the USA) do if Russia decides on a new "Berlin Blockade" in the Caucasus? Georgia is not just a few air miles from friendly supply points like Berlin was.

we're about to find out

BTR Wrote:
I know nothing about Europe... they talk funny :)


They sure do, so you know that much at least. 03-wink

BlazerMatt Wrote:
This whole thing between Russia and Georgia shows what happens when you let lobbyists have so much influence. Something brought to a whole new level by the disastrous Bush presidency, and something McBush obviously wants to continue.
Basically, it looks like that McBush's foreign policy adviser (who was the chief lobbyist for Georgia until this spring, well after he took his current position on McBush's campaign staff) convinced his former employers that the US would have their back if they started sh!t with Russia. Bad move Georgia. They listened to their lobbyist in Mcbush's campaign instead of listening to the actual US government who had been telling them since July to not use force against Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.


Didn't this whole thing start because of a break-away part of Georgia trying to secede, and not because of the Georgians trying to start **** with Russia?

It's amazing how you try to relate everything back to Bush. I don't see how a part of Georgia trying to secede has anything to do with Bush, Clinton, Obama, you, or me.

dfarr Wrote:

BlazerMatt Wrote:
This whole thing between Russia and Georgia shows what happens when you let lobbyists have so much influence. Something brought to a whole new level by the disastrous Bush presidency, and something McBush obviously wants to continue.
Basically, it looks like that McBush's foreign policy adviser (who was the chief lobbyist for Georgia until this spring, well after he took his current position on McBush's campaign staff) convinced his former employers that the US would have their back if they started sh!t with Russia. Bad move Georgia. They listened to their lobbyist in Mcbush's campaign instead of listening to the actual US government who had been telling them since July to not use force against Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.


Didn't this whole thing start because of a break-away part of Georgia trying to secede, and not because of the Georgians trying to start **** with Russia?

It's amazing how you try to relate everything back to Bush. I don't see how a part of Georgia trying to secede has anything to do with Bush, Clinton, Obama, you, or me.


I was just about to say the same thing. There is a serious situation going on over there, and what do we get out of people like blazermatt? Blame it on Bush.

Things could really get way out of hand in this region. Quite frankly, they're nearing the point of pushing this thing into a full global conflict already.

1) The United States has demanded Russia adhere to the agreed-upon ceasefire, but thus far, Russia has made little attempt to live up to it

2) The Ukraine (also a pro-Western former Soviet state) has stated that Russia's Black Sea Fleet must request approval for any naval activity with at least 72-hours advance notice. Russia basically told them that they'll do what they want.

3) The US and Poland today finally agreed upon a plan to put approx. 10 missile defense interceptor systems in Poland. Russia has expressed a great deal of anger/concern over this.

4) Russian consultants have recommended placing similar systems of their own on Cuba to combat the perceived threat by the United States.

All of these things seem to point to things getting out of hand and a return to Cold War posturing. This situation is MUCH bigger than just the nation of Georgia. This is yet another proxy war in which Russia is trying to reassert themselves as a superpower.
Its simple really, I don't watch Fox News, so I actually have a decent idea of what is going on in the world, and when I don't know something, I find out for myself by checking multiple sources, preferably first hand accounts whenever possible.

In a nutshell: Georgia launched a surprise attack on an independent, autonomous region, South Ossetia, killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. It is being spun by the MSM in the US that Russia invaded Georgia.
The reality is that Georgia invaded a self governed territory within Georgia, South Ossetia, which is an independent, autonomous region with many residents granted Russian citizenship, intentionally killing civilians. (The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. In essence, they cluster bombed a city.) There might have been some US involvement in the attack. The US sent around 1000 troops into Georgia a couple of weeks before the attack. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/i...9920080715


A recent history of the area, and how things got to this point. Knowledge is power.

Quote:
In the Soviet times South Ossetia was an autonomous area within Georgia. In 1991 Georgia's first president, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, abolished the autonomy. The South Ossetian authorities rejected that decision and put up an armed resistance to the Georgians.

In January 1991 open warfare broke out between Georgia and South Ossetia claiming heavy casualties on both sides.

After the armed conflict, which lasted until 1992, Georgia lost control over the territory and peacekeeping forces were introduced into the conflict zone.

In 1994 talks to settle the conflict began. On May 16, 1996 a memorandum on security and confidence measures between the sides was signed in Moscow. The Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze and South Ossetian President Lyudvig Chibirov had several meetings to discuss ways to end the conflict. Russia was the mediator in the negotiation process. On December 23, 2000 a Russian-Georgian intergovernmental agreement was signed on interaction and economic reconstruction in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone and on the return of refugees. In April 2001 a referendum in South Ossetia introduced changes in the republic's constitution. Georgia considers the referendum to be illegal.

On December 22, 2001 the OSCE mission in Georgia and the European Commission signed an agreement on a 210,000 euro grant for measures to settle the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. The European Commission took an active part in collecting and destroying weapons in the conflict zone.

The 10th meeting of the parties' official delegations took place as part of the negotiations to settle the Georgian-Ossetian conflict outside The Hague on October 14-17, 2003. Taking part in the consultations were the representatives of the Republic of North Ossetia-Alania, the Dutch co-chairs of the OSCE, the head of the OSCE mission to Georgia and the representatives of the European Commission. For the first time the parties failed to sign a final protocol due to substantive differences over its content.

On May 31, 2004 the commander of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone, Svyatoslav Nabdzorov, declared the intention to liquidate the checkpoints the Georgian Interior Ministry had set up along the Gori-Tskhinvali highway ostensibly to stop the transportation of smuggled goods.

On June 1, 2004 the Russian Foreign Ministry made three statements on the situation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. The Russian ministry called on the Georgian authorities to recognize the danger of provocations in the region.

On June 2, 2004, during a meeting of the co-chairmen of the Joint Control Commission for the settlement of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict the Georgian and Ossetian representatives agreed not to use force or economic pressure with regard to each other.

On June 3, 2004 Georgia sent 20 flatcars with tanks and armored vehicles, several Grad rockets and 350 peacekeepers to the Tskhinvali area. Georgia had 150 troops armed with small arms near Tskhinvali. All in all, Georgia can have 500 servicemen with limited quantities of armor in the conflict zone, the country's Defense Ministry said.

On June 28, 2004 three members of the Georgian Security Ministry were detained on suspicion of committing acts of sabotage and terrorism in South Ossetia. Following the incident Georgia refused to attend the meeting of the Joint Control Commission due to be held in Moscow on June 30. On July 3 the representatives of the Georgian special services were released. Georgia declared that it would continue working with the commission.

On June 30, 2004 Russian peacekeepers were attacked by a Georgian Interior Ministry unit. The Russian Foreign Ministry called on Tbilisi "not to bring the situation in South Ossetia to a danger point." Moscow "has no doubt that the forcible seizure of military property was deliberately aimed at further aggravating the situation in South Ossetia and undermining the Russian-Georgian relations," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

The situation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone took a turn for the worse when an armed clash occurred in the Liakhvi Gorge in South Ossetia. Tbilisi reported that two Georgian peacekeepers were wounded and one kidnapped. On July 8-9 talks were held in Tskhinvali between Georgian Minister of State Giorgi Khaindrava and Deputy Commander of the Russian Ground Forces Lieutenant General Valery Yevnevich on the settlement of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. The two sides discussed measures to stabilize the situation around South Ossetia.

On July 11 a meeting took place in Tskhinvali between the head of the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity and the Russian Foreign Ministry's Special Ambassador Lev Mironov to discuss the preparation and holding of the meeting of the Joint Control Commission (JCC) on the settlement of the situation in South Ossetia. On the same day a working meeting took place in Tskhinvali between the co-chairmen of the JCC with the participation of the South Ossetian Special Ambassador Boris Chochiyev and a representative of the North Ossetian government, Teimuraz Kusov. The parties agreed to stop all provocative actions in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. The conflicting parties pledged to stop the shooting and to lift the economic blockade.

On July 14, 2004 the first round of closed high-level talks in the JCC format was held in Moscow. The parties agreed that illegal armed units had to be withdrawn from the conflict zone. They confirmed the status of the peacekeepers in the conflict zone. The chairman of the Georgian National Security Council, Gela Bezhuashvili, said that the solution of the South Ossetian problem lay in the restoration of Georgia's territorial integrity.

On July 15, during the second round of the talks, the members of the JCC meeting signed a final document calling on the leaders of Tbilisi and Tskhinvali not to use force to resolve the conflict. The parties had to honor all the previous agreements. All the illegal armed units were to be disarmed and military vehicles had to be withdrawn from the conflict zone. A separate point in the protocol was devoted to humanitarian aid: the parties reaffirmed that such cargoes were to enjoy a favorable customs regime, as prescribed by the 1992 Dagomys agreements. The sides agreed that the JCC would be a permanent body based in Tskhinvali and that the following meeting would take place in Tbilisi several days later.

At a meeting in Tskhinvali on July 19, 2004 the representatives of Georgia, South Ossetia, North Ossetia and Russia agreed to set up a group of secretaries of the Georgian, South and North Ossetian parts of the JCC; and on July 21, the group and the counselor at the Russian Embassy in Georgia held their first meeting in Tbilisi. Georgia and South Ossetia reaffirmed their commitment to a peaceful settlement in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict and to preventing an escalation of tensions. A meeting of the representatives of co-chairs of the JCC in Tskhinvali on July 22 set the deadlines for the start of joint patrolling of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone by peacekeepers and OSCE observers and the routes of the patrols.

On September 30-October 2, 2004 a Joint Control Commission (JCC) meeting in Moscow discussed the prospects of resolving the conflict situation in South Ossetia, preventing future crises and economic rehabilitation of the conflict zone. A working group was set up to prepare decisions on the withdrawal of illegal units, dismantling of illegal checkpoints and the setting up of new checkpoints by peacekeepers.

On November 5, 2004 talks were held in Sochi between Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and the head of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity. They were mediated by the Russian Foreign Ministry represented by First Deputy Foreign Minister Valery Loshchinin. The parties agreed on full demilitarization of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. On November 13 Georgian Minister of State Giorgi Khaindrava and Special Affairs Minister of the Government of South Ossetia Boris Chochiyev agreed to liquidate the dugouts and other military structures. On November 15 the liquidation of military engineering structures began in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.

On November 18-19, 2004 a meeting of the JCC in Vladikavkaz reviewed progress in the fulfillment of the Russian-brokered agreements between Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and the president of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, reached in Sochi on November 5. President of the Republic of North Ossetia-Alania Alexander Dzasokhov, speaking at the JCC meeting, backed the proposal made by Zhvania and Kokoity to form a special economic zone that would include the Alagir District of North Ossetia, South Ossetia and the Gori District of Georgia.

On January 2005 Mikheil Saakashvili announced peace initiatives with regard to South Ossetia at a PACE meeting in Strasbourg. South Ossetia was offered broad autonomy as part of the single Georgian state. President George W. Bush in a telephone conversation on February 15 backed Saakashvili's initiatives. South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity, commenting on Saakashvili's initiatives, said that "South Ossetia has long been an independent republic" and there could be no question of creating a common state with Georgia.

On March 11, 2005 Mikheil Saakashvili told a briefing that he would not wait long for Tskhinvali's response to his initiatives on the status of South Ossetia. He noted that some representatives of the Tskhinvali authorities welcomed the Georgian initiatives, but were unable to make a decision. He said the Tskhinvali region and Abkhazia would "never become part of an empire, even of a former empire." "These are our people, our territory called Georgia and it will never be called anything else," Saakashvili said.

On March 16-17, 2005 a meeting of the co-chairs of the Joint Control Commission discussed demilitarization of the conflict zone in the framework of the November 2004 Sochi agreements. Taking part in the meeting were the delegations of Russia, Georgia, North Ossetia-Alania and South Ossetia.

On June 20-21, 2005 an emergency meeting of the Joint Control Commission for the settlement of the Georgia-South Ossetia conflict was held in Moscow. The sides were supposed to sign a protocol on the cooperation of the law-enforcement bodies in the conflict zone. However, the protocol signed envisaged only the creation of a group to investigate the incidents in the conflict zone on May 29 and June 6 (the murder of four Ossetian and one Georgian servicemen and the disappearance of four Georgians).

On July 10, 2005 an international conference on the settlement of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict was held in Batumi. The representatives of South Ossetia boycotted the conference. During the conference Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili declared that Georgia was ready to grant South Ossetia full autonomy and amend the country's Constitution accordingly. He said that his plan of settlement of the conflict with South Ossetia was a phased one and would take considerable time to implement. He said the plan took into account all the wishes expressed at various stages by the South Ossetian representatives. The unrecognized republic of South Ossetia rejected Saakashvili's offer of autonomy within Georgia.

On October 11, 2005 the Georgian parliament adopted a resolution "On Peacekeeping Operations and the Situation in the Conflict Zones of Georgia." It required Russian peacekeepers, stationed in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone, to enforce both parties' compliance with their agreements before February 1, 2006. Otherwise, the Georgian parliament would initiate the procedure of withdrawal from the Dagomys Agreement of 1992 on February 15, 2006, and require Russian peacekeepers' to withdraw.

On December 8, 2005 the Joint Control Commission held an emergency meeting following the increase of tensions in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. The commission analyzed the conflict and laid out measures to guarantee a peaceful Georgian-Ossetian settlement. Valery Kenyaikin, ambassador at large of the Russian Foreign Ministry and head of the Russian part of the commission, attended the meeting.

On February 15, 2006 the Georgian parliament adopted a statement envisaging cessation of the peacekeeping operation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. It qualified Russian action in the region as "armed intervention."

On May 31, 2006 Russian troops of the Joint Peacekeeping Force in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone rotated troops through the Rok Tunnel, which was out of Georgian control. Tbilisi regarded the Russian move as an official challenge. Georgian authorities alleged that Russia was introducing a greater contingent under the guise of rotation.

On July 16, 2006 Georgian police followed by car the Joint Control Commission leaders then stopped and detained them. They were searched, and their belongings were confiscated for several hours. The commission meeting had to be postponed for a day and a night.

On July 18, 2006 the Georgian parliament adopted a resolution on an immediate pullout of Russian peacekeepers from the country.

On September 27, 2006 Georgian secret services arrested four Russian military officers working in the GRVZ (Group of Russian Troops in South Caucasus) on espionage charges.

According to a statement issued by Marat Kulakhmetov, the commander of the Joint Peacekeeping Force in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone, which was carried by mass media, a Georgian task force attacked a vehicle of a North Ossetian peacekeeping battalion as it was leaving the village of Avnevi on September 29, 2006. Sergeant Kudziyev, who was in the vehicle, was beaten.

On November 12, 2006 a referendum on independence was held in South Ossetia alongside the presidential elections.

On August 7 Georgia accused Russia of an air attack, claiming two Su-25 jets with Russian markings intruded into Georgian airspace and fired missiles at a radar station near Gori. The incident prompted the cancellation of a Tbilisi meeting of the Joint Control Commission for Georgian-Ossetian Conflict Resolution (JCC) slated for August 9-10. Tensions surged in the conflict zone.

On August 29 Georgian authorities arrested and convicted two servicemen from the North-Ossetian peacekeeping battalion, Tariel Khachirov and Vitaly Valiyev. They were detained in a Georgian prison until February 2008, in violation of international law and the existing agreements on resolution of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. Neither representatives of the Joint Peacekeeping Force command nor officials from the Russian Embassy in Tbilisi were allowed to see them; they were also denied the right to use defense attorneys at court hearings.

The resumption of the negotiating process by the Joint Control Commission for Georgian-Ossetian Conflict Resolution (JCC) after a twelve-month break did not bring any progress. Georgia and South Ossetia failed to adjust their positions and adopt a joint statement during the talks held on October 23-24, 2007 at the OSCE premises in Tbilisi.

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region. Georgian Interior Minister Vano Merabishvili, commenting on the explosion of an anti-personnel mine that injured a local police officer near the village of Kheiti, accused Russian peacekeepers of planting the mine. Later he spoke on Georgia's Alania TV Channel accusing the South Ossetian government of issuing 1,500 fake Russian passports to local residents.

On May 14 President of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said the Georgian special services were planning a terrorist attack in the territory of the self-proclaimed republic against Georgians and Georgian peacekeepers.

On May 15 Captain Vladimir Ivanov, an aide to the Joint Peacekeeping Force commander for contacts with the media, announced a planned rotation of the peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia. Georgian media then spread information about an alleged expansion of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in the conflict zone, quoting Georgia's foreign minister. A routine rotation was described as a "provocation" and a "reckless enterprise."

On May 16 a bomb exploded on a roadside 200 meters from the Georgian village of Ergneti in the conflict zone. No one was hurt. Another bomb was detonated on the road between the Georgian villages of Eredvi and Ditsi. A Georgian Interior Ministry car was hit, injuring one Georgian special task force officer. A third explosion occurred on the same day in the vicinity of the village of Nikozi, where a local resident was injured by a mine in a field.

On July 3 as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the ‘alternative' Georgian-backed government of South Ossetia, was driving across the republic to Batumi to attend an international conference, his car was struck by a mine and fired at from the direction of local villages. Sanakoyev's bodyguards returned fire. The shooting went on for several minutes. Three of the guards were severely injured. Sanakoyev himself was unscathed. South Ossetian Interior Minister Mikhail Mindzayev said that the attack on Sanakoyev was orchestrated by Georgia to provide a pretext for invading the self-proclaimed republic.

In the early hours of July 4, 2008 Georgian forces used mortars, grenade launchers and guns to fire at Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and the villages of Ubiat and Dmenis. One person was killed and three wounded. Georgian officials claimed that South Ossetia started the shooting and Georgia was forced to fire back in self-defense.

On July 7 the police in Russia's Southern Federal District detained four military men from the Georgian Defense Ministry in the village of Okon, South Ossetia's Znaur District. Officials of the breakaway region of South Ossetia claimed the detained men were pursuing intelligence activities in the Tskhinvali region. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili considered the detainment a hostage situation. On July 8, the detainees were released.

On July 9, Russia's Foreign Ministry issued a statement concerning the aggravated situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-Ossetian conflict zones, which said that "For the past several days, the situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zones has intensified. The city of Tskhinvali has been shelled by the Georgian army, with victims registered among civilians. Fighters and unmanned aircraft of the Georgian Air Force have repeatedly violated the conflict territorial air zones. In a terrorist attack, a South Ossetian police officer was killed. Georgian military set up a post at a strategic site near the village of Sarabuki. Additional military equipment was moved from Georgia into the conflict zone without any coordination with the Joint Peacekeeping Forces, which was registered by military observers including by the OSCE mission in Georgia. These actions point to an open and planned aggression against South Ossetia, which is the internationally recognized side in settling the conflict."

On August 1 and 2, the tension in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone was aggravated due to a massive shelling of Tskhinvali's residential districts, which led to numerous deaths among civilians, with six South Ossetians killed and 15 wounded. Georgia claimed this was a response to South Ossetia's gunfire on Georgia's territory. South Ossetia began evacuating the region's residents to North Ossetia, with 2,500 people leaving their homes during the two days after the shelling.

On August 6, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said he would take "the toughest measures" toward "militants firing at the villages." Previously, the breakaway region's Defense Ministry reported that the Georgian side started sniper fire at the South Ossetian villages of Mugut and Didmukha in the Znaur District at around 12:00 p.m. According to South Ossetian sources, the Georgian special forces attempted to occupy Nul Height to gain control over the Znaur road and the South Ossetian villages located along the road. In the afternoon, it was reported that an aggressive battle was taking place at the village of Nul.

Irina Gagloyeva, head of South Ossetia's Committee for Information and the Press, told RIA Novosti that South Ossetian units had forced the Georgian military units out of Nul Height.

Georgia's Interior Ministry, however, denied the reports.

The same day, the special envoy of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Yury Popov, said direct Georgian-South Ossetian talks with Russian mediators were offered in the Joint Peacekeeping Forces' headquarters for August 7. However, Tskhinvali refused the offer.

On August 7 Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, in his national TV address to Georgia and to the Tskhinvali region, said he was ready for any negotiations to settle the conflict with South Ossetia. He suggested Russia become a guarantor of South Ossetia's autonomy within Georgia.

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

On August 8 Georgia started military operations in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.

BlazerMatt Wrote:
Its simple really, I don't watch Fox News, so I actually have a decent idea of what is going on in the world, and when I don't know something, I find out for myself by checking multiple sources, preferably first hand accounts whenever possible.

In a nutshell: Georgia launched a surprise attack on an independent, autonomous region, South Ossetia, killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. It is being spun by the MSM in the US that Russia invaded Georgia.
The reality is that Georgia invaded a self governed territory within Georgia, South Ossetia, which is an independent, autonomous region with many residents granted Russian citizenship, intentionally killing civilians. (The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. In essence, they cluster bombed a city.) There might have been some US involvement in the attack. The US sent around 1000 troops into Georgia a couple of weeks before the attack.


The thing is that I didn't get my info from Fox. Instead I got it from the NBC stations during olympic coverage. Funny how they never mentioned any of this information. I guess they're in the tank for the neocon imperialist Bush regime too. First we take over Iraq, next is South Ossetia, and then Iran!!

In all seriousness, thanks for the history of the region. From the way NBC framed it they made it sound like it was a region that just decided to secede from Georgia instead of being an independently governed region of the country with various treaties, peace talks, etc.

BlazerMatt Wrote:
In a nutshell: Georgia launched a surprise attack on an independent, autonomous region, South Ossetia, killing civilians and Russian peacekeepers. It is being spun by the MSM in the US that Russia invaded Georgia.

unfortunately, your nutshell appears to be a little cracked.

South Ossetia is not an independent, autonomous region/country/state.
Even though internal elections have been held to the effect,
the succession has never been recognized by the UN, EU, NATO, OSCE, Georgia
or the Russian Federation. The 'succession' is similar to the Confederate States succession from the Union.
All of the above organizations consider SO a part of Georgia.

http://www.answers.com/topic/south-ossetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-c...a_4100.jsp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/countr...m#overview
and even the loathed [by you] FoxNews has it correct.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,400046,00.html

Russia has
1) sided with the separatists
2) been and is today, interfering in [ostensibly] a civil war.
Georgia launched a surprise attack on...........................well








Georgia

Sigh. OldBlazer, I go through all the trouble of posting the recent history of South Ossetia and you couldnt even be bothered to read it? No, your analogy comparing what is going in in SO to the confedercy is not a good one. The Confederacy, or rather the states that made it up, were governed by the United States and signed treaties to form or join said United States. They then decided they didnt want to be a part of the United States. Lincoln said (in a decision I agree with) that once they agreed to be a part of the union, the combined governing power of that union superseded the individual power of the states.

SO has never been controlled or governed by Georgia. When both Georgia and SO were a part of the Soviet Union, SO had its own independent local authority, as did Georgia. When the Soviet Union broke up, Georgia tried to claim SO, SO said go to hell. The point is, Georgia and Russia had agreed to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict in the area. To the point where both sides had peace keepers in the area and allowed SO's local government operate independently. Georgia then attacked Russia's peacekeepers along with SO civilians.

A better analogy, though still not perfect, is the situation between China and Taiwan. China claims ownership of Taiwan although China (The PRC, or Peoples Republic of China, Taiwan is called The Republic of China or ROC.) has never controlled Taiwan or any of the current Taiwanese territory. The UN doesn't officially recognize Taiwan, the US doesn't officially recognize Taiwan. Yet, what do you think would happen if China invaded Taiwan? Better yet, what do you think our reaction would be if China attacked Taiwan and went out of their way to kill US armed forces who were there?

Don't you think we would be a little pissed?

Ok, replace the term China with Georgia, and the term Taiwan with South Ossetia. That's basically what the situation was before August 7th.
I've read your entire post. nice work. I bothered to educate myself on the subject before your post.
Your PRC v. ROC analogy is not [altogether] the same.
SO is internationally recognized as a part of Georgia. ROC is internationally recognized as a part of PRC.
The Russian Federation recognizes SO as a part of Georgia.
I even bothered to post five links on the matter, which you apparently ignored.
PRC doesn't recognize ROC as a part of anything other than PRC.
again, Russia DOES recognize SO as a part of Georgia.
Therefore, Russia recognizes they invaded another country (Georgia). PRC would be invading PRC, same as Georgia invading Georgia.
Would we approve a PRC takeover of ROC? I doubt it. And I don't know what the international reaction would be to PRC re-occupying a part of PRC.
SO may have told Georgia they didn't want to be a part of Georgia (much the same way the CSA told the USA),
but they are internationally recognized as such. Thus, my analogy to a civil war.
What does this all mean to me?
Twenty years of diplomacy with Russia, in the hopes they'll play nice, yielded what we have today.
Twenty years of holding ex-soviet and KGB d*cks still hasn't quelled old soviet expansion ambitions.
There never was, nor will there ever be, a 'peace dividend'.
Borders are tricky things. Do work on researching the birth of the nation state. Consider what it means. Contemplate things like the map of Germany and Italy a mere 200 or so years ago.

THINK HARD ABOUT TRADITIONAL LINES OF ETHNIC DEMARCATION.

The current world wont tolerate nations without borders. Everything has to be neat and tidy to ape the west.

The truth of the matter is that the world is full of "nations" without borders.

We are operating in the world based upon an ideal that is largely alien to others--an ideal based upon our own unique and excellent experience. England's island and time position resulted in something amazing--the nation state. English colonists with that history and enlightened beliefs saw a unique opportunity in a fledgling America.

In short, and back on topic, places like Georgia with differing groups (Abkhazians, Ossetians, Georgians, Memphis Tiger fans, USM fans, etc.) all bundled together with spit and bailing wire need to be approached with nuance and addressed with careful course. There is no "one size fits all" here. Reacting with "OMGWTFBBQ!!!1!" when Russia rolls in with BMPs and tanks is not going to accomplish anything.

We need to have both ears and both eyes open in the region. We need to know what Georgia's stability situation is. We need to help them become more ethnically diverse--a country is a failure (by our standards) that remains ethnically ghettoized by region. WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE BIG BEAR'S DESIGNS ARE and how to counter them before they come to a head to assist the fledgling country.

Less dogmatic adherence to a arbitrary line in the sand, more thoughtful approach to the specific circumstance of the people in question.

We dropped the football this time. By "we" I mean both us and our allies in the west. It's a lesson not only in how far Putin will go but also that we have neglected the region foreign policy-wise. But we're OK, the first time the horse bites ya, it's the horse's fault.

P.S. I've heard some noise that Georgians haven't been all that sweet to Ossetians. Perhaps that's Putin's pretense. What if we helped Georgia (with both the stick and the carrot) to be nicer to their neighbor/fellow countrymen so as to not only strengthen their "nation" but also thereby cut off Putin's pretense for action? That's basically what I'm sayin'. Get it?
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