NCAAbbs

No.. NOT the state.... However, Russia is welcome to bomb areas of South Fulton County, Dekalb, and the entire Clayton County.

Putin and his buddy Medvedev apparently feel the need to start a war...Maybe this is Round one of "NATO is Coming"

MEGVREKISI, Georgia (Reuters) - Tensions over Georgia's rebel territory of South Ossetia exploded on Friday when Georgia tried to assert control over the region with tanks and rockets, and Russia sent forces to repel the assault.

Fighting between Georgian forces and Russian-backed separatists raged in and around Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, after Tbilisi sent troops to take back the territory, which broke away in the 1990s.

A senior Georgian security official said Russian jets had bombed the Vaziani military airbase outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi, and President Mikheil Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.

He also said Georgian forces had downed two Russian jets.

The Russian RIA news agency quoted a source in the regional Russian military headquarters as saying Russian armor had rolled into Tskhinvali, which Georgia had earlier claimed to have "freed". There was no immediate confirmation from Russia that it had sent bombers.

The crisis, the first to confront Russian President Dmitry Medvedev since he took office in May, looked close to spiraling into full-blown war in a region emerging as a key energy transit route, and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/i...0420080808

South Ossetia sounds like a fictional country out of a cheap 80's war flick, possibly with Chuck Norris playing a starring role.....

So, what is Georgia's NATO status? Wikipedia says that Georgia has an "Individual Partnership Action Plan". What does that mean with regard to treaty obligations?

BTW, Nato.com is pretty whacked... The real NATO web site is NATO.int (and don't forget the NATO podcast: Jazz concert by the Latvian National Armed Forces Staff Band)


The real NATO web site is NATO.int (and don't forget the NATO podcast: Jazz concert by the Latvian National Armed Forces Staff Band).

I'm sure the Georgians don't look at it this way, but aren't they technically the offensive force? Can they invade a country and expect NATO to come to their aid? I guess if WE can do it....

South Ossetia is a province of Georgia - not a country of its own.

I was thinking out of Orwell's "1984"...

Double Plus Good.....

On my recent trip to China, I was told the same thing about Taiwan. "Taiwan ... Chinese province".

Russians don't scare me as much as a president O'Bama and Democratic congress led by Pelosi and Reid.

...and the potential justices he could fast-track in to the Supreme Court. We were affirmed our right to own a firearm by one vote. Kennedy. The 4 moonbats on the USSC dissented.

Guess what... (But no surprise)... the Russian armored regiments DIDN'T STOP at securing the "disputed Russian ethnic areas" and it looks like a general invasion of Georgia...

Soviet Union Part 2 is on its way...

Add to the fact that Russia is suddenly in good with some of the countries in the Middle East (IRAN) that hate the US and want us destroyed. We (and Israel) should be worried.

Which is wrong. Taiwan is a sovereign state with its own independent democratic government since 1945 (remenants of Nationalists). Its NEVER been under the control of the PRC.

NATO should admit the Ukraine next week as a full member. Lets see Putin chew on that..

I didn't think we officially recognized Taiwan's independence.

Score: 1,313,973,713-1

During the same conversation, we talked about how China had the third largest land mass by nation in the world. To which I should have responded "only if you include Taiwan", but unfortunately I wasn't quick enough.

Not as much fun as working with Indian and Pakistani ex-patriots when they were openly doing underground nuclear tests 10 years ago or so, but...

It looks like Russia is not stopping until all of Georgia is under it's control.

Ground Invasion of Georgia Begins.

Pretty scary stuff, and Putin's arrogance is mindboggling.

Maybe it was the wrong time for American Airlines to start direct service from Chicago to Moscow.

Well, there isn't much in the neighborhood for the US to send to Georgia for a "show of support"...

While the US frequently sent smalll naval task groups into the Black Sea during the Cold War for "Freedom of Navigation" exercises ( a Destroyer, a couple of Frigates), I don't see anything being detached from 6th Fleet AOR to make a cruise around the Black Sea.

Just wait if Obama is President. Watch the Russians start hassling the Poles, Lativians, etc.

haven't read it all yet, but a timely book that just came out:
"The Return of History and the End of Dreams" by Robert Kagan, former Reagan State dept. official.

talks alot about the Autocratic powers, Russia along with Chinese and of course the Islamo-Nazi's and their goals. much of it is devoted in particular to the horrendous concern that Iran may indeed become a nuclear power - and soon. However, to Kagan, the notion that the end of the cold war ushered in "the end of history", where we now stood at the precipice of global modernity and enlightenment peace and prosperity, has not been merely "delayed" by the Islamicists. Indeed, the very notion itself was ridiculous, and came about as a result of deeply flawed ideological tenets held by many domestically and abroad. And right now, as Kagan sees it, there is a gigantic divide between the "democratic powers" (the USA, primarily, and the EU nations as well), and then the autocratic powers, Russia and China, primarily.

The Utopian fantasies that came out of the Soviets falling have placed us in a dangerous situation again.

This by the way, is the school of thought McCain is coming from and following the Reagan tradition. It's McCain's strong suit and this situation unfolding has to only help McCain in the election

btw, here is the famous(infamous?) piece this book is a play off of(refuting) from 1992 by Francis Fukuyama.

http://www.wesjones.com/eoh.htm


Human Nature and history didn't stop when the Soviets fell, its a ludicrious notion to begin with. But when you ideologically beleive in either a large Nanny-State Govt. which thus needs much of the Funds the military has OR ideologically beleive in a foreign policy of isolationism(non-interventionism) and ignore human nature and history in the process, its easy to fall for it. Especially after the Long Cold war and what we now wrongly know, but thought were "Peace Dividends".

Buckle Up, this century may be as bloody and dangerous as the last century. paticularly when you look at the Demographic changes in play

Yes, but it's a province which appears to never have really wanted to be a part of Georgia and was at least semi-autonomous even during the days of the Soviet Union. There is also an existing cease fire (from 1992) between South Ossetia & Georgia which it appears Georgia might have violated to precipitate the current conflict.

If South Ossetia doesn't want to be a part of Georgia I see no reason not to allow them to seceed, particularly since Georgia doesn't appear to have any longstanding claim on the region.

Of course, everything I know about South Ossetia I learned in the last couple of days, so I could well be wrong.

I don't want the south to be part of the current United States, you cool with that?

Hey Reb...Ready to send our boys in to help the Georgians?

Absolutely. If you can get enough people willing to voluntarily withdraw their consent I'd have no objection.

Obama can't be trusted and has little experience in dealing with the Russians. McCain has been around long enough to know what the Russians are capable of when gets confident. Hitler and Stalin took over small countries until they have most of Europe in their control.

Georgia got a measure of revenge this morning, knocking the Russian duo out of the womens beach volleyball competition at the Olympics.

it's McCain's strongsuit for sure, he's long argued there was no G8, that it was really a G7 because Russia wasn't really part of it. and of course he said when he looked into Putin's eyes all he saw was a "K" a "G" and a "B".

only reason Russia doesn't want Georgia to have NATO membership is their true plans are to take back all those Eastern Bloc states again, and control as much of the Oil flow into europe as possible.

I've heard Putin described as Russia's Ronald Reagan. In that case, the Georgia President is assuming the role of Manuel Ortega. From what I've been able to surmise, Russia seems to have goaded Georgia into giving them the justification to crack down on them.

Continuing the Reagan analogy, this may be similar to the Grenada and/or Panama actions which seemed to put the ghost of Vietnam behind the US. Russia seems badly in need of something to put the Afghanistan/Chechnya wars behind them and bolster their nationalistic aims, while also asserting itself in the face of toothless NATO flirtations in the region. In that context, it makes more sense that Russia provoked this than it does for Georgia to have genuinely taken the initiative here.

I read somewhere that the Georgian president had two campaign promises - to get Georgia into NATO & return the breakaway republics to the fold. This makes me think that he might have been foolish enough to think he could get away with it (though I can completely understand how he was playing right into Moscow's hand).

Maybe we're better off with politicians who don't try to fulfill their campaign promises after all.

Sounds like to me Georgia is getting it's comeuppance. Let Russia bomb them into submission.

So Russia is trying to get that oil. Seems I have heard wackos use this claim as an excuse for certain invasions in the past.

While it seems like the situation is murkier than it might at first appear, I wouldn't go that far. After all, Russia is doing to the Chechneyans exactly what they are accusing the Georgians of doing to the South Ossetians. And it's not hard to believe that they have been "encouraging" Georgia, either.

if Russia gets this, they will control have the Oil that flows to Europe. This paticular piece of land connects the Caspian Sea and Mediterrianian Sea.

Putin has already seized control of Russian Oil companies, and jailed the businessmen who previously had ran them(privately), among other things.


its absolutely SICK the taking the side of the Russians in this, against an actual free society. Moral Relativism of the worst(and most dangerous) kind. The whole thing was a setup and timed around the Olympics for cover. South Ossetia baited Georgia into reacting to violence, they did, and Russia launched its trap. apparently taking it all the way to the capital.

This is Cold War era stuff all over again, luckily Russia isn't as strong....unless we let them seize control of more Oil and Oil Logistics.

What do you see as moral relativism? I have no doubt Russia was pleased when Georgia invaded South Ossetia, but it does appear that Georgia was the first to violate the terms of the existing ceasefire (though I admittably have no knowledge of the actual terms). Isn't supporting Georgia because they are relatively more free than Russia, even if they are in the wrong in this case, the morally relative position?

After all, Georgia was allowed to secede from Russia. Why shouldn't South Ossetia be allowed to secede from Georgia?

Moral Relativism found:

Well, the Georgians did get some hits in and at least went down fighting...

August 17, 2008: Russian troops beat the Georgians on the ground, not so much because of superior numbers, but because the Russians had more troops with combat experience, and very recent experience in fighting this kind of war. The Russians got this way by fighting a successful campaign just across the border, in Chechnya. There, several hundred thousand Russians and pro-Russian Chechens have gotten valuable combat experience. The Chechen rebels (a mixture of nationalists, gangsters and Islamic radicals) have been reduced to a few hundred hard core fighters. The Russians basically use Chechnya as a training ground where their "contract soldiers" (volunteers, who are much more effective than conscripts) can get some combat experience. These volunteers are particularly common in paratrooper and commando units. Both were apparently used in the ground operations that pushed the Georgians out of South Ossetia, and conquered key areas elsewhere in Georgia. Some of the "Russian" troops were apparently Chechen paramilitary units.

The Georgian troops had received training and weapons from the U.S. and Israel over the last few years. But the U.S. training was mainly for peacekeeping operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was of limited use against experienced Russian counter-terrorism troops. A small number of Georgians received special operations training, but not enough of these troops were available to defeat the Russian advance.

The Georgians did better in the air and at sea, even though they were greatly outnumbered there as well. Georgian warplanes shot up the Russians pretty badly (killing the commander of Russian ground forces, for example) before the Russians were able to shut down the Georgian air force. But in the process Russia lost at least four aircraft destroyed, and a number of others badly damaged.

At sea, Georgian missile boats hit several Russian warships, which had not been equipped with equipment, or crews, that were capable of dealing with this kind of threat. Two Russian warships were damaged sufficiently that they had to withdraw from the area. Within a few days, however, Georgia's miniscule navy and air force were destroyed, largely by the much larger Russian air force.

The Russians ran a large scale Information War campaign, shutting down Georgian access to the Internet for several days, and blanketing the world media, and Internet, with Russian spin on what was going on in Georgia and why.

The Russians apparently wanted to intimidate the Georgians into electing a less pro-West government. There are some Georgians who are more inclined to do whatever the Russians want, but it's unclear if this faction has a majority of the votes yet. Some Georgians believe that the Russians are still angry about Josef Stalin, a Georgian who killed more Russians than Adolf Hitler. Stalin is still a hero to Georgians.

Russia has now shown itself to be a bully. Russia has been trying to annex two parts of Georgia that border Russia, and this war was all about showing Georgians that Russia would rather fight than give up this land grab. The UN was created to deal with this sort of thing, but Russia is doing well, so far, intimidating the UN into inactivity.

It's not a clear win for the Russians, but, short-term, many things appear to be going their way. Long term, things are rather more murky. Europeans have been reminded that the Russian bully they have feared and despised, for so many centuries, is back in town. That could have interesting consequences down the road.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/a...80817.aspx