NCAAbbs

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2008/06/uab_...ement.html

Seems like we rank pretty bad on math for elementary grads..

It is Schard's fault!

If the math teachers today are like the ones I had at UAB (94 to 00), it's probably easy to see why the grades are lower.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't the greatest math student. But all three of my teachers were in the wrong profession. Teaching was not their strongest skill.

Also thought this was interesting to note:
"The report released last week also said other Alabama schools would probably fail if included in the study because of weak state requirements."
Somehow, we were the focus, but the poor performance has been noticed at other state schools.

Is it just me or is UAB always the example used when something negative needs to be pointed out. The referenced article and report could just as easily mentioned UAT, Auburn, Troy, or practically any other university in the state. Why didn't ANY media source in the state of Alabama report that UAB is one of twelve hospitals in the running for hospital of the year. My concern is that UAB will be the first college thought of when a negative example is needed. This sucks...

Because they were not in the study.

I don't watch the local TV news, so I would be interested to hear from y'all what they cover.

I read the replies on AL.COM and found some totally unrealistic. One said "If you can't handle Calculus, you have no business teaching math in elementary schools". Why not an MBA to teach vocational business courses in high school? These folks seem to forget they are shopping for teachers with a wallet designed to get the least, not the most qualified teachers today. They have the proverbial "champagne taste with the beer wallet".
I know of no professors who don't want to increase the rigors of teacher training, but to do so there must be a pay off upon graduation. There is a problem when you tell a youth that he/she, in order to get significant pay raises, must go back to school at their own expense to get advanced degrees to qualify for their MA, EDS and earned Doctorate so that after 35- 40 years in an Alabama school district, they can make a little better than $50,000 per year. They won't even be able to take these school expenses off their income taxes since courses that may increase your pay are not deductible.
Add to that only being paid per diem about 180 days per year, no paid vacation no matter how many years you teach, no 401-K is legal for teachers, no overtime for working week ends or late at night (unless you are a coach), $10 to $12 per hour to teach summer school for four to six weeks-7:30 to 3:30 with no pay for lunch (though you often must take your students to lunch and monitor their conduct while they eat).
The public wonders why the job attracts male and female predators who take sexual advantage of students. As Willie "The Actor" Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks? He simply replied,"That's where the money is". Why do predators become teachers, scout masters, youth directors in churches, etc? That's where the children are, and schools can't afford to be too choosey or they risk being short of staff in the fall. Police background checks often take months during which people work while the check is processed.
Keep in mind that "how to teach" is only learned for K-12. No one who plans to teach Post Secondary (JUCO, college, university) is bothered by courses on how to teach, only courses in their area, but of course, they will make the equivalent of two or three academic K-12 teachers. Gee, I wonder why there is a problem?

quote=BAMANBLAZERFAN]
I read the replies on AL.COM and found some totally unrealistic. One said "If you can't handle Calculus, you have no business teaching math in elementary schools". Why not an MBA to teach vocational business courses in high school? These folks seem to forget they are shopping for teachers with a wallet designed to get the least, not the most qualified teachers today. They have the proverbial "champagne taste with the beer wallet".
I know of no professors who don't want to increase the rigors of teacher training, but to do so there must be a pay off upon graduation. There is a problem when you tell a youth that he/she, in order to get significant pay raises, must go back to school at their own expense to get advanced degrees to qualify for their MA, EDS and earned Doctorate so that after 35- 40 years in an Alabama school district, they can make a little better than $50,000 per year. They won't even be able to take these school expenses off their income taxes since courses that may increase your pay are not deductible.
Add to that only being paid per diem about 180 days per year, no paid vacation no matter how many years you teach, no 401-K is legal for teachers, no overtime for working week ends or late at night (unless you are a coach), $10 to $12 per hour to teach summer school for four to six weeks-7:30 to 3:30 with no pay for lunch (though you often must take your students to lunch and monitor their conduct while they eat).
The public wonders why the job attracts male and female predators who take sexual advantage of students. As Willie "The Actor" Sutton said when asked why he robbed banks? He simply replied,"That's where the money is". Why do predators become teachers, scout masters, youth directors in churches, etc? That's where the children are, and schools can't afford to be too choosey or they risk being short of staff in the fall. Police background checks often take months during which people work while the check is processed.
Keep in mind that "how to teach" is only learned for K-12. No one who plans to teach Post Secondary (JUCO, college, university) is bothered by courses on how to teach, only courses in their area, but of course, they will make the equivalent of two or three academic K-12 teachers. Gee, I wonder why there is a problem?
[/quote]

I want a doctor who is brilliant, his only communication skills need only to be the minimum to get the point across.

A teacher of fractions doesn't need to know calculus. A teacher needs to know the fractions thoroughly and be able to explain those fractions inside and out. I suspect our methods or training are broken and need to be replaced or very much refurbished.

As a graduate of the masters program in the school of education at UAB, I got a first hand account of how pathetic the education department is run at UAB. The staff and faculty are an embarassment to the teaching profession. For a school as renowned for its medical research and engineering, you would think the university would do better in this field of study.

GreenMississippi Wrote:I want a doctor who is brilliant, his only communication skills need only to be the minimum to get the point across.

The professors wholeheartedly disagree with you on communication.

That damn Schard.............

What? You mean that teachers actually have to pay for their advanced degrees? No way! You must be kidding me! I thought all advanced degrees were free or paid for by your employer! I could have sworn that those in the MBA program were not only given free tuition but that UAB actually paid them a stipend to attend school. Poor, poor teachers. Let's double their pay and give them another 15 days vacation per year.

Michigan helped alleviate this issue by certifying retired engineers, scientists, etc. as high school teachers, provided they teach hs math. Seems to be working.

BTR Wrote:What? You mean that teachers actually have to pay for their advanced degrees? No way! You must be kidding me! I thought all advanced degrees were free or paid for by your employer! I could have sworn that those in the MBA program were not only given free tuition but that UAB actually paid them a stipend to attend school. Poor, poor teachers. Let's double their pay and give them another 15 days vacation per year.

Seriously, given summers off, AEA week off, personal days off, and holidays, etc. What is the HOURLY wage by most teachers. Not yearly, but HOURLY.

BTR Wrote:What? You mean that teachers actually have to pay for their advanced degrees? No way! You must be kidding me! I thought all advanced degrees were free or paid for by your employer! I could have sworn that those in the MBA program were not only given free tuition but that UAB actually paid them a stipend to attend school. Poor, poor teachers. Let's double their pay and give them another 15 days vacation per year.

You could double the pay of most teachers in Alabama and they would still make less than the national average.

MC Blazer Wrote:Michigan helped alleviate this issue by certifying retired engineers, scientists, etc. as high school teachers, provided they teach hs math. Seems to be working.

These retirees usually have substantial pensions and 401-Ks to "supplement" their teaching income. They wanted to teach, but they didn't do it until it represented no sacrifice to their families or economic position. There is a former physician teaching Chemistry at Huffman HS in B'ham. Why didn't he go into teaching back when he finished college years ago? You know that answer, don't you ? These kinds of "fixes" are band-aids on a major wound. A real solution to the problem is well known but not welcomed by citizens.
Give teachers "more vacation days"? Do you consider it "vacation" when you are faced with NO pay for 185 days each year? That kind of "vacation" you can have too, if you quit your job.
My remark about paying for advanced degrees was that it usually takes about 5 years of salary increase for a degree to "break even" to the costs of getting it. An MBA probably pays for itself much faster, at least it did for my son. Getting advanced degrees is required to reach that "lofty" $50,000 per year income level in 40 years. BTW, It is NOT uncommon for private employers to reimburse employees for advanced school expenses. My youngest daughter just got her Masters in Nursing and was subsidized by her employer, a hospital in Kokomo, IN.

So you're taking a typical Alabama attitude? It works in Michigan but it will never work here? Most teachers I know (roommate, sister, several friends) consider summer to be paid vacation since they are still recieving a paycheck and will be returning to their jobs come fall. Meanwhile, the question remains out there: With all the days off, what is the average HOURLY wage. I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just curious.

TMcCarty Wrote:

GreenMississippi Wrote:I want a doctor who is brilliant, his only communication skills need only to be the minimum to get the point across.

The professors wholeheartedly disagree with you on communication.

I know the importance of communication, and the school of engineering has drilled it and rightfully so. Your personal success can only go so far if you can't communicate, and if you lack clarity the results can be disasterous.

A doctor who can speak his (in the gender-neutral sense) words eloquently will go far, but his skills as a doctor are far more important than his ability to talk at a conference or to the patient. If he can clearly convey what needs to be done, I can care less how he says it. I would rather consider the doctor gruff, rude, and blunt when he tells me how I am recovering, than eloquently make me feel better as he tells me how my organs are continuing to fail. I encourage all schools to teach communication skills and it's importance as it will do them and those who they work with well. Clarity first, then eloquence.

In regards to a teacher, that should be someone who is a master of communication and conveyance, knowing well what they are meant to teach (beyond that it is not necessary).

MC Blazer Wrote:So you're taking a typical Alabama attitude? It works in Michigan but it will never work here? Most teachers I know (roommate, sister, several friends) consider summer to be paid vacation since they are still recieving a paycheck and will be returning to their jobs come fall. Meanwhile, the question remains out there: With all the days off, what is the average HOURLY wage. I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just curious.

1st year teachers in AL with a BS/BA receive a base salary of a little over $34,000. Most school districts give teachers the option of receiving their salary over a 9 mo. or 12 mo. period. So, technically teachers who decide to receive pay in the summer are not on paid vacation, rather they have only decided to stretch their money out over the year. If you divide that $34,000 into 12 months, that about $2800/per mo., roughly $560/week and about $14/hour. 9 months- About $3700/ mo.,$755/ week, and $18/hour. This is all without taking out taxes and considering that the teacher works a 40 hour week.

My mother, grandmother, three aunts, and sister are all teachers and one thing that I have learned is that teachers regardless of region or subject taught are UNDER paid. No one can account for all the guidance they have to give students and the late hours grading papers,etc.

MC Blazer Wrote:So you're taking a typical Alabama attitude? It works in Michigan but it will never work here? Most teachers I know (roommate, sister, several friends) consider summer to be paid vacation since they are still recieving a paycheck and will be returning to their jobs come fall. Meanwhile, the question remains out there: With all the days off, what is the average HOURLY wage. I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just curious.

Alabama teachers are not paid hourly. They are paid per diem-per day (8:00-4:00) for the number of days in the districts school year. The state minimum is 175 days though there is movement to increase this to 180 days. If they miss a day for any reason that is not covered by a "sick day" (Sick days build up at one (1) per month of service if you don't miss a day that month to 9 per year) their pay is cut one day's pay. ANY DAY school does NOT operate, the teachers are not paid ANYTHING. Several years ago, a teacher at Councill Elementary in B'ham was assaulted by a baseball bat carrying parent and was so badly mauled, she missed an entire year which caused her to have to use up all her sick days.
If teachers worked a 261 day school year (365-104 week end days), their pay would be quite good if the per diem rate was maintained. BTW, If your boss received your annual pay in 9 monthly payments (like every school district does) and then gave it to you in 12 smaller monthly checks, would you consider that OK with you?
What I said about the Michigan effort was that it was a "band-aid" approach since these teachers may quit at any time that they decide they would rather do something more "fun" in their retirement. BTW, Check the average Michigan teacher pay ($54,412)* and how it matches Alabama's ($38,325)*. As I pointed out, there is a former physician working at Huffman High right now. How many former physicians, engineers, architects, Generals, etc. do you think Alabama can COUNT ON to solve its teacher shortage? In which type of schools do you suppose they would be willing to teach?
* Thanks to BTR's figures in the next post.

Grammar-Nazi Wrote:You could double the pay of most teachers in Alabama and they would still make less than the national average.

So the average salary for a teacher in the US is at least $68,000 per year for 9 months a year? Wow! That is great. Someone should tell the NEA.

By the way, comparing salaries from Alabama to California and other states is like comparing apples and oranges. Nearly every job in California and the northeast is going to pay significantly more than in Alabama because the cost of living in those states is much more than it is in Alabama.

Actual average salaries - not just more stats pulled out of the air

U.S. average $46,752
State Avg. Salary
Alabama $38,325
Alaska $51,736
Arizona $41,843
Arkansas $39,314
California $56,444
Colorado $43,319
Connecticut. $57,337
Delaware $49,366
Dist. of Columbia $57,009
Florida $40,604
Georgia $45,988
Hawaii $45,479
Idaho $41,080
Illinois $54,230
Indiana $45,791
Iowa $39,432
Kansas $38,623
Kentucky $40,240
Louisiana $37,918
Maine $39,864
Maryland $50,261
Massachusetts $53,181
Michigan $54,412
Minnesota $45,375
Mississippi $35,684
Missouri $38,006
Montana $37,184
Nebraska $38,352
Nevada $42,254
New Hampshire $42,689
New Jersey $55,592
New Mexico $38,067
New York $55,181
North Carolina $43,211
North Dakota $35,441
Ohio $47,482
Oklahoma $35,061
Oregon $49,169
Pennsylvania $51,835
Rhode Island $52,261
South Carolina $41,162
South Dakota. $33,236
Tennessee $40,318
Texas $40,476
Utah $38,976
Vermont $42,007
Virginia $43,655
Washington $45,434
West Virginia. $38,461
Wisconsin $42,882
Wyoming $39,532
Source: National Education Association

Keep in mind-There is no uniformity with how teacher salaries are set in all states. GA does not do it like AL, for example. GA has a statewide minimum "matrix" to which each district adds its chosen supplemental amount. AL sets no minimum and each of the 133 districts sets its salaries totally on its own from "scratch". In each district though there is one fact you can count on. The highest pay will go to the coaches and Co-Op Vocational teachers who get a full 12 months pay. Then come the regular Vocational teachers who usually get 10 months full pay. They get two weeks pay to "set up" in the fall, and two weeks to "put away" at the end. At the bottom of each districts pay scale are the academic elementary and secondary subject teachers who get 9 months pay (175-180 days depending on the districts schedule) which is usually spread over 12 months of reduced checks (9 divided by 12).
Thanks BTR for the list. Note that 17 states fall below $40,000/ year with the lowest being So Dak at $33,236--- $13,516 below the National Average. Eleven of the 17 come within $2,000 of that figure. The highest was Conn. at $57, 337--- $10,585 above the National Average so the range is about $24,000 top to bottom.

Teachers don't get paid enough.

You do not need calculus to teach 2nd grade math.

UAB got singled out, what's new. Who even said this study was worth it's salt?

BLAZR3 Wrote:Teachers don't get paid enough.

You do not need calculus to teach 2nd grade math.

UAB got singled out, what's new. Who even said this study was worth it's salt?

The typical Abalama (American) media, that's who.
Teachers, the military, and most civil servants are all subject to the catch-22 of serving a self-centered society: Everybody wants the best, but nobody wants to sacrifice and pay for the best. It is always an afterthought, i.e. "Heck, just raise taxes (BUT NOT MINE)..." "I'm sure glad 'they' do it, and not me..."
That's the typical, knee-jerk American way. It always sounds nice, gooey and warm, but when it comes to making hard decisions on the personal level, we have proven as a society of the almighty Individual, that quite honestly, we SUCK at making these hard decisions. The greatest generation of WW2 was able to see this ideology for what it was, and make the necessary sacrifices, but their legacy is the current, snot-nosed, whiny Americana that can't even agree on what acceptable moral code should bolster this nation's foundation. We run around shouting "My RIGHTS," not "Our RIGHTS." We've forgotten the ehtic of defending each other and have chosen to focus on ourselves. This 180 degree shift in perspective has resulted in the degradation of national identity, unity, and character. We are now a decidedly weaker country of individuals. You know, "United We Stand, Divided We Fall?!?" Our families are falling apart, our communities are non-existent, and our civil servants are hog-tied with idiotic policies, over-burden, and low pay. Teachers, a part of the failing public education "system," are the cog that repeatedly gets whittled away. This article is just another example of how the general public, and John Q. Media JUST DO(ES)N'T GET IT...
We have traded away our collective decency for individual pusuits and flights of fancy. We've been so freakin focused on self-actualization, we've forgotten some of the basics, the 3 "Rs": Readin, Ritin, Rithmatic. We've taken for granted what made us a great country- Love of God, Others, and Country. Education is embedded in all of this.
3 words can sum this up: Duty, Honor, Country. If we could only remember that by loving and serving each other, we ensure not only our collective survival, but we also ensure our successful longevity as a group. A group of individuals is sure to fail, but an individual group will garner perpetuity.

Let me lay out the cold, hard facts:

-Bush's No Child Left Behind Act requires the AL State Dept. of Education to develop and implement a plan to help local educational agencies (universities and public school systems) ensure that Alabama public school teachers are "highly qualified."

-The state department did a ridiculously poor job of deciding what qualifications would be. Here's the list with my comments:

a. Passed an appropriate state subject matter test; (your high school graduation exam was harder than this)
OR

***b. Has earned at least 12 semester hours of credit in each of four disciplines: English language arts including reading and writing, mathematics, science, and social studies;
***(This is where UAB School of Ed comes in. Unfortunately, those 12 sem hrs come in the form of prerequisite courses taught by the Mathematics Dept and completed prior to entry into the UAB Teacher Ed Program... THESE COURSES DO NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM INSTRUCT HOW TO TEACH MATHEMATICS OR EVEN COVER MATERIAL THAT COULD BE USED IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL SETTING)
OR

c. Hold a Class A (Masters) or Class AA (Ed.S) Professional Educator Certificate in Early Childhood Education, Elementary Education, or an area of Special Education that includes elementary grades;
OR

d. Has 5 years of full-time teaching in the discipline and holds a valid National Board for Professional Teaching Standards Certificate in the specific discipline or in a broad category appropriate to the specific discipline.


The state's "highly qualified" standards DO NOT address what was looked at in the study. The study in the article covers exactly ONE course in UAB's Teacher Education Program (TEP):

412. Elementary School Curriculum: Mathematics—(Also
ELE 512.) Materials and methods of teaching mathematics. Scope,
sequence, and content of mathematics program. Computational
skills, problem solving, and discovery learning. Includes field
experiences. Prerequisites: Admission to TEP and six hours of
mathematics. 3 hours.


To even get your AL state teaching certificate, you have to be "highly qualified", graduate in good standing from your university and pass your cumulative exam, pass the Alabama Prospective Teacher Testing Program (APTTP), and pass the national PRAXIS assessment in your specific area of focus. Once you get a teaching position, your teaching methods are observed and assessed by your administrators a minimum of three times each year for your first three years and you are required to go through a structured interview covering your teaching methods each year for three years.

Individual school districts ultimately direct how mathematics are taught in the classroom and many times the teaching methods are different from what ANY university taught their teachers.


The bottom line is that UAB was the only university from the state that was in this study--UAB's program is based on state mandates as directed from No Child Left Behind--the state says that the teachers UAB graduates are adequately prepared to teach all subjects per the state teacher assessment and the national PRAXIS test... if every university in the state is doing what the AL state dept of ed dictates, every university in the state is sending poorly prepared teachers to schools across the Southeast.


FINAL CONCLUSION:
-The No Child Left Behind Act has serious flaws and it's my opinion that studies like this one are geared to shine light on the ineffectiveness of NCLB.

-The study did prove that the AL State Department of Education has serious flaws when it comes to addressing higher ed issues and implementing national mandates.

-The UAB School of Education is doing what the state dept. requires of it, but its dean doesn't have the ability to push the school to higher standards than the state dept. has set in place. Dean Froning also doesn't realize what a mess the whole process of receiving an education degree at UAB has become (another topic completely).

-The elementary teachers that graduated from UAB can, if fact, teach elementary mathematics proficiently regardless of what the study says. Your local school district, if worth its salt, makes sure of that because they don't want the morons at the state department coming in and taking over their schools.


Sorry for not chiming in sooner... I can tell Attalla and BTR were waiting with bated breath for me to comment. ;-)

Every Education professor I have known since 1960 has wanted to improve the rigors of teacher training , both in content and supervision during training. They have wanted to raise the standards for getting into the program in the first place. All of these have been confounded by various impediments about what to test for, how to fairly test and even what test to use. Over the decades though, the biggest impediment has been the lack of sufficient financial reward for excellence of performance. Since the "Wallace years", financial improvement has been sporadic and usually minimal. Even today we can't begin to guess when the state will be able to again "give" a raise to its teachers. How demanding can you be when you are offering a job that averages less than $40,000 a year for 40 years? A couple of decades ago the AEA worked with the state to set up a program to give higher pay to "better" teachers, but the state backed out of the deal after a few years when more than one teacher per school qualified for the higher pay. More than one per school was beyond Alabama's limit for "better" teachers.

Good post Schard

See, I told you it was Schard's fault! I knew it!!!!

However I believe that the post may have had a contribution from Mrs Schard.

I am a teacher and I believe that NCLB is as worthless as the paper it was written on. I am hoping that the next administration will see that NCLB needs to be trashed and let the local school districts take care of itself. Education would be better off with out elected politicians getting in the way and creating ridiculous legislation that doesn't help students or teachers.

BandGrad Wrote:I am a teacher and I believe that NCLB is as worthless as the paper it was written on. I am hoping that the next administration will see that NCLB needs to be trashed and let the local school districts take care of itself. Education would be better off with out elected politicians getting in the way and creating ridiculous legislation that doesn't help students or teachers.

this is status quo for federal intervention in states rights.

My recently retired mother was a teacher for 38 year her student constantly scored it the top 10% of the state on thier achievment test. Yet when the highly qualified teacher crap came into being, in mom's 38th year, they sent letter home to her students parents stating mom was not a highly qualified teacher. She felt this was an insult because over the years she had won many teaching awards and grants and even taught a class on discipling children effectivly. So yes, the standards are crap any one with a good 10th grade education can teach 5th grade math and calculus has nothing to do with it. I truely believe techers are born and have an innate ability to teach just like Vaden has an ability to shoot a basketball. Until we foster this teaching spirit and support our teacher in the disciple of the chilren then we shall have the sorry excuse for an education system that we have.

BTW did you guys know that when a teacher retires they have to pay 100% of thier insurance? It is sad the treatment we give our teachers.

oldblazer79 Wrote:

BandGrad Wrote:I am a teacher and I believe that NCLB is as worthless as the paper it was written on. I am hoping that the next administration will see that NCLB needs to be trashed and let the local school districts take care of itself. Education would be better off with out elected politicians getting in the way and creating ridiculous legislation that doesn't help students or teachers.

this is status quo for federal intervention in states rights.

Old blazer I have to meet you sometime and discuss the degredation of states rights.

HellBlazer Wrote:BTW did you guys know that when a teacher retires they have to pay 100% of thier insurance? It is sad the treatment we give our teachers.

Isn't this normal for most jobs? I don't know of too many jobs that provide insurance when you are not working there any longer. Actually, many jobs don't provide insurance when you are working there. My dad retired from US Steel and even with their marvelous benefits packages... he pays for his insurance in retirement.

I actually got my PEEHIP (public ed employee health ins) open enrollment packet in the mail yesterday... we pay $2 for individual for BC/BS or VIVA, $134 for family coverage while active; retired individual @ non-medicare eligible is $97.54 -- family is $284.94; retired & medicare eligible drops to $1 for individual, $188.54 or $92.14 for family (lower cost if dependent is medicare eligible)... even if retired, your mom isn't paying for all her insurance. It's just more expensive until she hits medicare age.

BTR, I have been reading and editing my wife's research paper on NCLB and its effects on teacher burnout and attrition for weeks, so I'll give her most of the credit.

HellBlazer Wrote:I truely believe techers are born and have an innate ability to teach just like Vaden has an ability to shoot a basketball. Until we foster this teaching spirit and support our teacher in the disciple of the chilren then we shall have the sorry excuse for an education system that we have.
BTW did you guys know that when a teacher retires they have to pay 100% of thier insurance? It is sad the treatment we give our teachers.

Inborn "talent" may be true for many teachers. As with any talent, it makes doing something-piano, baseball, artistic expression (painting, sculpture, drawing, etc.), etc.- easier to learn and to be "good at it". The problem is the limited supply of "naturally talented" teachers. To have the hundreds of thousands of teachers we need to staff the schools of America, we must rely upon people who must learn to teach and to do it well. The greater the academic ability of the teacher candidate, the more likely you are to get the desired quality of teacher "product" going into the classroom.
Because of the disrespected social and economic status of teachers in American culture and their generally low pay (considering the requirements for getting the job), we generally attract a lower quality of candidate than we need to do a high quality job. Many students in the College of Education are "drop-outs" from more difficult curriculums (engineering, business, premed, etc.) looking for an easier course of study. Education professors want to increase the rigors of the preparation, but there is no financial pay off at the end to make it possible. Taking 30 years to get to $40,000 per year won't cut it for the "best and brightest" youth of today. They want the opportunity to make real money while they are still young so they go elsewhere than Education. In the mean time, we will continue to "get what we really pay for" in the public (and most private) schools.

According to the American Federation of Teachers Web site, the average salary for teachers in K-12 for 2005 nationwide was $47,602. Alabama's was $38,186, which ranked 46th nationally.

The starting salary for teachers in Alabama is $31,368.
The starting salary for teachers in Alabama is actually almost the national median, yet the average ranks near the bottom. Either Alabama has way too many beginning teachers, or its teachers maximums are pathetic compared to the national. Either way, it lacks balance.
The average teacher salary in Alabama is the only one nationwide to drop from 2004-2005, by about 1/2 of 1 percent.

Grammar-Nazi Wrote:its teachers maximums are pathetic compared to the national.

Bingo.

AL teachers' salaries top-end pretty low.

Grammar-Nazi Wrote:According to the American Federation of Teachers Web site, the average salary for teachers in K-12 for 2005 nationwide was $47,602. Alabama's was $38,186, which ranked 46th nationally.
The starting salary for teachers in Alabama is $31,368.
The starting salary for teachers in Alabama is actually almost the national median, yet the average ranks near the bottom. Either Alabama has way too many beginning teachers, or its teachers maximums are pathetic compared to the national. Either way, it lacks balance.
The average teacher salary in Alabama is the only one nationwide to drop from 2004-2005, by about 1/2 of 1 percent.

As I have mentioned many times, the problem is NOT where teachers start, but the level of "MAXIMUM" reached a decade or so after beginning. When I retired from B'ham City in 1997, the maximum pay for each of four levels was reached at 12 years. The difference between the "starting salary" for a new non-tenure BA or BS holding teacher and the 12th year (MAXIMUM) with an earned Doctorate degree was about $15,000. I started in 1964 and taught until 1997. My last pay increase from B'ham was for the year 1976. All pay increases beyond that were statewide pay boosts every three to four years, usually 4 to 6 per cent (though George Wallace's last increase in his last year as Gov. was 15%).
Remember that in Alabama every district makes its own pay scale virtually from "scratch". That includes at what year you reach "MAXIMUM". In some districts, that may be as few as 6-8 years. Regardless, the academic teachers (Math, Science, English, History) are ALWAYS the lowest paid of all teachers. It is problematic how the higher pay of coaches and adminstrators skews the average for "all" teachers.

BAMANBLAZERFAN Wrote:...Because of the disrespected social and economic status of teachers in American culture and their generally low pay (considering the requirements for getting the job), we generally attract a lower quality of candidate than we need to do a high quality job. Many students in the College of Education are "drop-outs" from more difficult curriculums (engineering, business, premed, etc.) looking for an easier course of study...

hammer, meet nail head.

not to say ALL teachers fall here,
but my children had more than their share while in government schools.

If we valued the people who taught our children as much as we do people who can play ball well, we'd have better teachers.

Just to end the debate regarding teacher salary in AL, here's a link to the salary schedule for one county in AL (salary schedules vary between each district, but usually no more than a couple grand one way or the other): http://www.shelbyed.k12.al.us/personnel/...sional.htm

When looking at this particular schedule, notice that the only way to get a noticeable increase in pay is through reaching tenure (3 yrs exp) or receiving an advanced degree.

Schard Wrote:Just to end the debate regarding teacher salary in AL, here's a link to the salary schedule for one county in AL (salary schedules vary between each district, but usually no more than a couple grand one way or the other): http://www.shelbyed.k12.al.us/personnel/...sional.htm

When looking at this particular schedule, notice that the only way to get a noticeable increase in pay is through reaching tenure (3 yrs exp) or receiving an advanced degree.

REALITY CHECK:
Shelby County is among the top couple dozen paying districts in this state. Its salary schedule for academic classroom teachers (the first one given) is for 187 days. (Most of the 133 districts pay only the state required minimum of 175 days.) The difference in Shelby County between nontenure BA/BS starting teacher and an earned doctorate (practically none at this level remain in the classroom) at maximum is $25,294. The difference between N/T teachers and maximum EDS teachers (many remain in the classroom) is only $20,794 per year.
The other schedules farther down are for vocational teachers and specialists who meet no regular classes (librarians, guidance counselors, etc.) who work a longer year for more money. Notice that none of the coaching supplements were given.

Here is my unsolicited 2 cents worth. Most teachers are great people who to wonderful things for kids as they grow up. They have an opportunity to influence thousands of kids to be better people. You are not going to be paid millions to be a teacher. Just like hundreds of other jobs, teachers play a vital role in our society but they are not going to make $100,000 a year. There are some real benefits to being a teacher that go beyond the financial. Taking time off each summer is great. Does it mean that they have three months vacation a year? No, I am not claiming that but there is significant down time and that is a cool benefit. I know several teachers that supplement their income by picking up additional jobs in the summer months, good for them.

Here is my gripe. Like many of these service type jobs, you know what you are going to get paid when you go into it. You know it is a demanding job and you will often put up with absolute spoiled brats and crummy parents. You know that some kids you are going to change forever for the best. You also know that you will have pretty good benefits but your pay is probably never going to be spectacular. That is just the way it is. I work in a similar field (making much less) and know that even with my doctorate, I will make not 1 penny more than if I didn't even have my masters. For me, the doctorate was to be better prepared... not to make more money. So... that is just the way it is. Some people do great things for something other than money.

You may say... yes, but they are the people who influence our kids. We need to pay them more. Aren't our kids worth more? Well, nurses are also paid less than they “deserve”. What about the tech who sterilizes the surgical equipment? Why, they probably only make $80 per day. Their job is just as vital as the surgeon because if they don't sterilize the equipment properly then little Johnny dies of an infection. The fact is... people should do their job to the best of their ability and be as prepared as they can to do it. If they can't live on the money that they make at their job, go into a different profession.

I am not trying to be harsh but good gracious... people are acting like starting out making $36,000 and good medical benefits for 175 days of work is lousy pay. That is over $25 per hour... not too shabby if you ask me. You probably aren't going to have a million dollar home and drive a new car each year but it isn't that bad. The other thing to point out is that sure the average salary is less in Alabama but the cost of living in Alabama is significantly less than most states and all salaries are less in Alabama so why should it surprise you that teachers make less.

Please don't think I am trying to make teachers out to be second rate at all. I have the utmost respect for teachers and think that most do a good job. Most are also not in it for the money... that is obvious. If you are in it for the money, move to Georgia, California, or New Hampshire.

BTR Wrote:You are not going to be paid millions to be a teacher. Just like hundreds of other jobs, teachers play a vital role in our society but they are not going to make $100,000 a year.
ANSWER: Most don't expect $100,000 / yr unless they coach a major sport. We want teachers to make enough to attract the best possible young people into our chosen profession rather than just the best we can get at the price. Depending on what you get by being the "low bidder" for services is not how you improve schools.

Taking time off each summer is great. Does it mean that they have three months vacation a year? No, I am not claiming that but there is significant down time and that is a cool benefit.
ANSWER: Time off without pay is NOT a "vacation". Anyone can get a job that gives them 185 days per year without pay. Is that supposed to be a benefit? In any field besides teaching that would be considered a PART-TIME job. BTW, BILLS DON'T TAKE A VACATION JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET PAID FOR 185 DAYS. On a personal note,I worked summer school for $10 per hour (8-12) for 6 weeks, night school (2 sessions from 6-9 for four weeks for the same pay, coached the Academic competition team every school day, and served as Chair of the History Dept. the last 10 years as well to "make ends meet" all for less than $40,000 per year. Is this pattern of income attractive to your children? If so, they may be our new teachers.

I know several teachers that supplement their income by picking up additional jobs in the summer months, good for them.
ANSWER: Being FORCED to get a part-time job to support your family is not what a college education is supposed to promise. Let me know when you find a doctor, lawyer or nurse for that matter working for minimal wages to make enough to support their families. Did you get your degree so you could work overtime hours at Sears or Wal-Mart instead of raising your children yourself?

Here is my gripe. Like many of these service type jobs, you know what you are going to get paid when you go into it. You know it is a demanding job and you will often put up with absolute spoiled brats and crummy parents. You know that some kids you are going to change forever for the best.
ANSWER: I went into teaching in 1964, and at that time teacher pay was triple the "poverty wage"($1500 / yr). Today's poverty wage for a family is over $20,000 / yr so for a teacher to start at triple that we would have to START at over $60,000 / yr. Today, in Alabama, the academic teachers (K-12) average about half that. The state COL is NOT that much less than elsewhere.

You also know that you will have pretty good benefits but your pay is probably never going to be spectacular. That is just the way it is. I work in a similar field (making much less) and know that even with my doctorate, I will make not 1 penny more than if I didn't even have my masters. For me, the doctorate was to be better prepared... not to make more money. So... that is just the way it is. Some people do great things for something other than money.
ANSWER: All teachers know there is financial sacrifice involved, but we deal with the future workers of America and we know what they are saying about teachers and their own desires for the future. Only those coming from the worst circumstances consider teaching a good choice for investing the costs of a college education.

You may say... yes, but they are the people who influence our kids. We need to pay them more. Aren't our kids worth more? Well, nurses are also paid less than they “deserve”.
ANSWER: My youngest daughter became an RN with a 2 year degree from Samford and outperformed me financially her FIRST year at Children's Hospital. She got to work overtime during the holidays for time-and-a-half while I worked on grading projects at home during the holidays for NOTHING. It made her glad she decided on nursing instead of her first major-Early Childhood Education.

What about the tech who sterilizes the surgical equipment? Why, they probably only make $80 per day. Their job is just as vital as the surgeon because if they don't sterilize the equipment properly then little Johnny dies of an infection.
The fact is... people should do their job to the best of their ability and be as prepared as they can to do it.
ANSWER: Are "techs" required to have college degrees? Do they have to get advanced degrees to qualify for significant raises? How often do they run into their surgeons as both are looking for part-time jobs to supplement their incomes?

If they can't live on the money that they make at their job, go into a different profession.
ANSWER: That's exactly what so many of our "best & brightest" are doing INSTEAD of teaching. It's when they fail in those other studies that we get them into teaching studies. When you DEPEND on LUCK to get better teachers, you are in trouble. Do we depend on LUCK to get good doctors, lawyers or sports coaches, or do we reward them with good pay to try to get the best?

I am not trying to be harsh but good gracious... people are acting like starting out making $36,000 and good medical benefits for 175 days of work is lousy pay. That is over $25 per hour... not too shabby if you ask me.
ANSWER: Any teacher who works only a 40 hour week isn't of the quality you say you want. If 8-4 and 5 days per week with nothing taken home is what you want, say so. I have had to grade papers, projects, term papers, etc. on my own time for most of my career. Week nights and Saturdays are often used to do the job right. How does that figure into your "$25 / hr for 40 hour/ wk" figure?

You probably aren't going to have a million dollar home and drive a new car each year but it isn't that bad.
ANSWER: How about driving a 10-15 yr old car and having to depend on your spouse's income added to yours to qualify for even a modest house? How about college professors making twice your income and then being able to send their kids to their college tuition free when K-12 teachers pay full price to send theirs?

The other thing to point out is that sure the average salary is less in Alabama but the cost of living in Alabama is significantly less than most states and all salaries are less in Alabama so why should it surprise you that teachers make less.
ANSWER: Alabamians make less because so many never finish high school, let alone college. Do you think having poorly paid teachers is a stimulus for deprived kids in trying to convince them to "stay in school" and go on to college? In most cases their teachers are the only formally educated persons they encounter daily in their world.

Please don't think I am trying to make teachers out to be second rate at all. I have the utmost respect for teachers and think that most do a good job. Most are also not in it for the money... that is obvious. If you are in it for the money, move to Georgia, California, or New Hampshire.
ANSWER: What they often do when they get families to support is QUIT TEACHING to become Real Estate agents, lawyers, or some other more RESPECTED and BETTER PAID jobs. The only ones in it "for the money" are the ones people want to get rid of, and we could IF we could afford to replace them with improved teachers. RESPECT DOESN'T "FEED THE BULLDOG" OR THE MORTGAGE, CAR NOTE OR TUITION FOR KIDS.

I am not going to try to respond to your points until you fix it where it is readable.

Basically you continue to say that you want them making double what they are making now. You missed my point completely with the tech... it wasn't the amount of money, it was the “importance of the job” in the big picture which is what I hear all the time for people wanting to pay teachers $60,000 because the job is so important to the kids.

In order to make that much money, did your daughter as a nurse work 175 days per year? Or... did she work 40-48 hours week?

I specifically said it wasn't vacation but yes... let me shout this for you so you will understand... THREE MONTHS WITHOUT WORKING IS A BENEFIT... specifically when you know that you are going to have it each year in addition to sick time, vacation, and development days. It is a benefit. How? Because believe it or not some people look at it as a way to stay home with their kids in the summer. I have heard many teachers say that was a big draw for them... being able to spend their summers with their children. I never said it was paid vacation, I just said it was a cool benefit and most people would probably agree. If they want to work extra jobs, they are able to do so.

I am sick of the poor mouthing because teachers are supposedly paid nothing. What would make you happy for working 9 months a year. What amount is reasonable and would make you happy?

The cost of living has something to do with the level of education but it has more to do with the fact that it is cheaper to live in the south than in other parts of the country. It is just cheaper to live there. You can't compare salaries for teachers in Alabama and other parts of the country without taking into account the cost of living.

I am not calling for a pay cut for teachers nor would I argue against routine raises and an effort to get us reasonable increases in line with the cost of living compared to other states but I don't think this would involve massive pay increases. Also... teachers are not the only profession that requires you to be prepared for your 8-5 (or in this case 8-4) job. Many professions require you to prepare in the after hours.

I am moving this thread to the politics forum because we have successfully derailed it into politics and not UAB.

BTR Wrote:I am not going to try to respond to your points until you fix it where it is readable.
ANSWER: Sorry for the challenge to your reading comprehension so I went back over it to mark my answers.

Basically you continue to say that you want them making double what they are making now. You missed my point completely with the tech... it wasn't the amount of money, it was the “importance of the job” in the big picture which is what I hear all the time for people wanting to pay teachers $60,000 because the job is so important to the kids.
ANSWER: If $60,000 per year is what it takes to get the talent needed for the job, then yes, it is what I want. What do I expect? A lot less of pay increases (maybe none until after 2010) and a lot more of griping about the product turned out. Alabamians didn't invent having champagne taste with a beer wallet.

In order to make that much money, did your daughter as a nurse work 175 days per year? Or... did she work 40-48 hours week?
ANSWER: She worked for hours for which she was PAID. She was never expected to work for additional hours for NO additional pay as teachers regularly are expected to do. You have seen many newspaper stories about teachers coming into school in the weeks before it starts to get their rooms ready for the new year. They are doing this for FREE as pay doesn't start until school is in session. Do doctors come in to paint their ORs? Do lawyers come in to paint the courthouse rooms? Do college profs come in early to "spruce up" their classrooms?

I specifically said it wasn't vacation but yes... let me shout this for you so you will understand... THREE MONTHS WITHOUT WORKING IS A BENEFIT... specifically when you know that you are going to have it each year in addition to sick time, vacation, and development days. It is a benefit. How? Because believe it or not some people look at it as a way to stay home with their kids in the summer. I have heard many teachers say that was a big draw for them... being able to spend their summers with their children. I never said it was paid vacation, I just said it was a cool benefit and most people would probably agree. If they want to work extra jobs, they are able to do so.
ANSWER: If you are working for "extra money" and are married to a person who works and is paid all summer so you can "have time with the kids", fine. If you are supporting a family that eats all summer, wants to go places and participate in activities during the summer, lives in a house you are paying for all summer, and your spouse is not working for executive pay all summer. Then NO!! Time off without pay is not a benefit. If it's so great, maybe we should give everyone 185 days off without pay and see if they think it a benefit!

I am sick of the poor mouthing because teachers are supposedly paid nothing. What would make you happy for working 9 months a year. What amount is reasonable and would make you happy?
ANSWER: For someone who "respects teachers" you have a strange way of showing that "respect". It reminds me of "Bull" Conner's statement that "Some of my best friends are N_______S!" This is not about "ME". It is about a profession teetering on the brink of collapse for the majority of the 133 public school districts, and all the state can do is worry about overpaying its teachers!! Do you seriously believe the young people of this state are so "slow" they can't see the "Handwriting on the State Legislature's wall"?

The cost of living has something to do with the level of education but it has more to do with the fact that it is cheaper to live in the south than in other parts of the country. It is just cheaper to live there. You can't compare salaries for teachers in Alabama and other parts of the country without taking into account the cost of living.
ANSWER: Do you honestly believe Alabama is the "cheapest place to live" in the U.S.A.? I have had many move here and tell me that for day to day living expenses, Alabama is as expensive as any other places they have lived. We have virtually no property taxes, so that is a benefit to those who own homes, but for food, entertainment, clothing, medical and dental costs they are at least as high as other places.

I am not calling for a pay cut for teachers nor would I argue against routine raises and an effort to get us reasonable increases in line with the cost of living compared to other states but I don't think this would involve massive pay increases. Also... teachers are not the only profession that requires you to be prepared for your 8-5 (or in this case 8-4) job. Many professions require you to prepare in the after hours.
ANSWER: I am well aware of the hours other "professions" put in. After all, I grew up with a brother who is a well known doctor. I also know he "consults" today for $500 per hour. I just want to make the PROFESSION of teaching attractive to the "best & brightest" students, not just to the "least common denominator" students. What is it that computer specialists say about "getting back the same as you put in"?

I am moving this thread to the politics forum because we have successfully derailed it into politics and not UAB.
ANSWER: It is "OK" by me to move it anywhere you wish. This topic is very important to Alabama's future as an "engine" of industry. We can't rely on industries to bring in the educated people they need to turn out their products.

So...hey, anyone curious as to what the dean has to say about it? From the Sunday edition of the News:

Quote:UAB dean rebuts study
Sunday, July 06, 2008
MICHAEL FRONING

Arecent study by the National Council on Teacher Quality on the mathematics preparation of elementary school teachers - reported in The News last week - used controversial premises weakly supported by research and such narrow criteria that its conclusions are suspect.

Schools of education across the nation, including UAB, have revised and enhanced their programs in ways the report's methodology does not reflect, and have instituted assessment models whose public data demonstrate the preparedness and effectiveness of their graduates.

The report claimed that UAB inadequately prepared elementary teachers to teach mathematics because UAB did not require mathematics courses specifically designed for elementary teachers. That is incorrect.
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For the past 10 years or more, UAB has taught MA113, Mathematics for Elementary Teachers, directly targeted at the mathematics content of the elementary curriculum. Many students have also taken MA114, its companion course.

The UAB School of Education provides a mathematics curriculum fully consistent with the recommendations of the NCTQ. Moreover, it has a commitment to rigorous preparation of its elementary education candidates for the teaching of mathematics. UAB has a campuswide commitment to quantitative literacy (the ability to understand and use mathematics). Elementary education majors are required to take four courses in the mathematics department. The report recommends three.

The report recommends the involvement of the mathematics department and its faculty in the preparation of elementary teachers. At UAB, that relationship is historic and well-established and includes local and national school partners from the Greater Birmingham Math Partnership, including Birmingham-Southern College and the Mathematics Education Collaborative, and was recognized by a $10 million award from the National Science Foundation.

The most cutting accusations are that "almost anyone can get in" to and "almost anyone can get out" of the education major. These unfounded and damaging remarks have been made for years about teachers and are standard talk-show fare from several members of the NCTQ board of directors and its advisory board.

Here are the facts: To "get in," elementary education majors at UAB must meet standard UAB entrance requirements including a minimum ACT score of 21. (In fact, the average ACT score of a freshman in education at UAB is 24.1, higher than 80 percent of all those who took the test in Alabama in 2007.) They must then complete their core curriculum with a minimum 2.5 GPA, complete an extensive portfolio demonstrating their fitness to teach, and pass the Alabama Prospective Teacher test.

To "get out," they must complete 40 semester hours of professional education courses that require more than 200 hours of practical experience in schools before student teaching, pass rigorous methods classes that include extensive content from their field of study, pass the national PRAXIS II test on the content they will teach, serve a 15-week internship under the supervision of a master teacher and, finally, complete an extensive portfolio of high-stakes evidence that supports their personal ability to increase learning in children. This is all before they get their first teaching job.

The authors ignored the research-based connections at UAB between mathematics and the enhanced teaching methods used to deliver it. We not only teach elementary majors about best teaching practices, but the faculty in mathematics and in education who teach content and methods courses participate in ongoing professional development that attends to deepening the mathematics knowledge of teachers.

Mathematics is serious business for us at UAB. We invest heavily in the mathematics training of all of our students, including elementary education majors. But for education majors, there is added intensity caused by the national focus on our country's low performance in math. The state of Alabama's response has been to promote AMSTI, the Alabama Math, Science, and Technology Initiative. UAB hosts the local AMSTI site, but we have also taken direct action to develop highly effective, knowledgeable and skilled elementary teachers who understand mathematics and can teach it.

Apparently, these combined efforts are paying off in the classroom. UAB graduates have been honored five times in the past 11 years as Alabama's Teacher of the Year. Ten of the 22 recipients of the Presidential Award for Excellence in Teaching Mathematics and Science given in Alabama by the National Science Foundation since 1998 have been UAB graduates. Michael Froning, Ed.D., dean of the UAB School of Education, used comments from members of the Greater Birmingham Math Partnership, the UAB Mathematics Department and faculty and students from the UAB School of Education to prepare this essay. E-mail: mfroning@uab.edu.

http://www.al.com/opinion/birminghamnews...xml&coll=2

BAMANBLAZERFAN Wrote:

BTR Wrote:I am not going to try to respond to your points until you fix it where it is readable.

ANSWER: Sorry for the challenge to your reading comprehension so I went back over it to mark my answers.

It says more about your computer literacy than my reading comprehension.

So when do I have permission to bitch about my pay as a nurse? I make slightly more than the average teacher in Alabama (and that's working night shift for the shift differential) and I don't get 3 months off a year.

On a serious note, I have several friends who are teachers, and they all got into it knowing about the pay. However, they chose to do it b/c they like working with kids. I also think it has been blatantly obvious that throwing more money into the public education system in this country doesn't help.