Let's get people on record.
What winning percentage for an overall career would you judge as being a successful college football coach? In other words, what is your cutoff point? (above this mark is successful, below it is unsuccessful)
Why don't you just save us all the trouble and tell us.
you do want us to think of this in a vacuum, with all things being equal, and all programs starting form scratch right? if not i would expect 90% to be successful at alabama, usc, texas, and notredame. 50% would be successful at memphis, mississippi, houston, and kentucky. 30% would be successful at vanderbilt, tulane, rice, and northwestern. what was your rate of success as a division one head football coach?
Moved for obvious reasons.
Apparently, one of the mods is in "stifle discussion" mode again.
I never made any comments about any coach. I just asked a straightforward question.
Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
tigerkeep Wrote:you do want us to think of this in a vacuum, with all things being equal, and all programs starting form scratch right? if not i would expect 90% to be successful at alabama, usc, texas, and notredame. 50% would be successful at memphis, mississippi, houston, and kentucky. 30% would be successful at vanderbilt, tulane, rice, and northwestern. what was your rate of success as a division one head football coach?
I think you have nailed it. History, commitment from donors and administration, etc., have so much to do with expectations.
67%, 2/3rds, 134-67, averaging 8-4 seasons, would be outstanding at Memphis. But who could last that long playing against our program's peers? All the locals would be griping about not playing anybody and saying that's why they don't go to games. After two 8-4 seasons in a row, the clamor would be deafening to schedule $EC teams, much bigger programs which should beat us, so without having had the money to buy recruit enticing amenities, over the long haul, we'd probably lose more of those than we'd win. Thus if we would be a really good 2/3 against our peers, the overall records would drop and you'd end up under the 67%.
In general, I would call a college coach at .600 (120-80 career) quite successful.
kpigout Wrote:Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
....or this one?
79...2-14
80...6-10
81...13-3
82...3-6
83...10-6
_________
Total 34-43
kpigout Wrote:Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
I'm not-so-patiently waiting for the trap to be sprung so I can see who's record this is.
oldtiger Wrote:kpigout Wrote:Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
....or this one?
79...2-14
80...6-10
81...13-3
82...3-6
83...10-6
_________
Total 34-43
I said "for an overall career" not for just a segment. Pulling just a handful of years out of Frank Beamer's or Bill Walsh's careers is ridiculous.
Tommy West's overall career record for 13 years as head coach is 76-79, including five full seasons at Clemson where he had overwhelming financial as well as administrative support. He was fired at Clemson because he couldn't get the job done.
Until you buy season tickets, donate to the TSF and join the Highland Hundred and donate a little extra time or $ STFU.
For a person who admits he does ABOSLUTELY NOTHING in the way of support for any aspect of the University athletic programs, you spout off more bullsh*t than anyone.
Until you make a committment to help STFU and get out of the way.
bigtigercharlie Wrote:Until you buy season tickets, donate to the TSF and join the Highland Hundred and donate a little extra time or $ STFU.
For a person who admits he does ABOSLUTELY NOTHING in the way of support for any aspect of the University athletic programs, you spout off more bullsh*t than anyone.
Until you make a committment to help STFU and get out of the way.
Bite me. Money doesn't give someone the right to have an opinion.
TW is a mediocre coach and as long as the big money people want to support that mediocrity, we are stuck with him. Although, none of his suporters seem to support him enough to purchase new locker rooms, a new weight room, or a new on campus stadium so I guess all this talk about money is nothing more than pure BS.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:oldtiger Wrote:kpigout Wrote:Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
....or this one?
79...2-14
80...6-10
81...13-3
82...3-6
83...10-6
_________
Total 34-43
I said "for an overall career" not for just a segment. Pulling just a handful of years out of Frank Beamer's or Bill Walsh's careers is ridiculous.
Tommy West's overall career record for 13 years as head coach is 76-79, including five full seasons at Clemson where he had overwhelming financial as well as administrative support. He was fired at Clemson because he couldn't get the job done.
When Tommy has been around 25-30 years, then there is a comparison. For now with your cherry-picking as$, we can do it as well and knock out Tommy's first 2 years at Memphis if you don't wanna look at what Beamer and Walsh did at the beginning of their careers at VT or SF.
Here's my view of Tommy's career.
31-28 overall at Clemson, a winning record.
33-29 at Memphis discounting the 1st 2 seasons to develop his own players and his own system.
So he had 1 bad season at Clemson, and 1 bad season at Memphis.
No matter how you look at it or want to skew numbers, which anybody can do, Tommy is off to a better start then those 2.
Just a note..Tommy took over a winning program at Clemson, and a losing program at Memphis. That is my reason for discounting his first 2 years here.
Quote:Tommy West's overall career record for 13 years as head coach is 76-79, including five full seasons at Clemson where he had overwhelming financial as well as administrative support. He was fired at Clemson because he couldn't get the job done.
I beg to differ.....while the overall record of 76-79 may not be up to your 'high' standards..a little research might do some good.The following are a couple of highlights from:
http://clemsonwiki.com/wiki/Tommy_West
Tommy West, a native of Gainesville, Georgia, became Clemson's twenty-third head football coach when he took over the reins on November 29, 1993 and led the Tigers for five seasons, 1993 to 1998. His Clemson record included four bowl appearances, 12 road wins, 86 school records and an unsurpassed academic record of excellence. He took the Tigers to three straight post-season games between 1995 and 1997, only the second Clemson coach to take the team to three consecutive bowls.
Tommy West was hired as the new head coach within the week and led the Tigers to a 14-13 win over Kentucky in the Peach Bowl in Atlanta, Georgia on December 31. He was the first coach ever to secure a bowl win who had not previously been associated with the team in the preceding regular season.
Academically, 61 Clemson football players made the ACC academic honor roll in West's last four years, twice as many as the best previous four-year total in Clemson history
West finished his Clemson career with a 31-28 record, including four wins over Top 25 teams. Despite the fact that he was being let go by the university, a clear sign of how well respected and liked Tommy West was, was that his players carried him off the field at the end of his last game as head of the Tigers. He is now head coach of the Memphis Tigers where he took them to a nine-win season and their first bowl appearance in 32 years in 2003, followed by other bowls in 2004, 2005 and 2007
It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
GoFor3 Wrote:Quote:Tommy West's overall career record for 13 years as head coach is 76-79, including five full seasons at Clemson where he had overwhelming financial as well as administrative support. He was fired at Clemson because he couldn't get the job done.
I beg to differ.....while the overall record of 76-79 may not be up to your 'high' standards..a little research might do some good.The following are a couple of highlights from:
http://clemsonwiki.com/wiki/Tommy_West
Tommy West, a native of Gainesville, Georgia, became Clemson's twenty-third head football coach when he took over the reins on November 29, 1993 and led the Tigers for five seasons, 1993 to 1998. His Clemson record included four bowl appearances, 12 road wins, 86 school records and an unsurpassed academic record of excellence. He took the Tigers to three straight post-season games between 1995 and 1997, only the second Clemson coach to take the team to three consecutive bowls.
Tommy West was hired as the new head coach within the week and led the Tigers to a 14-13 win over Kentucky in the Peach Bowl in Atlanta, Georgia on December 31. He was the first coach ever to secure a bowl win who had not previously been associated with the team in the preceding regular season.
Academically, 61 Clemson football players made the ACC academic honor roll in West's last four years, twice as many as the best previous four-year total in Clemson history
West finished his Clemson career with a 31-28 record, including four wins over Top 25 teams. Despite the fact that he was being let go by the university, a clear sign of how well respected and liked Tommy West was, was that his players carried him off the field at the end of his last game as head of the Tigers. He is now head coach of the Memphis Tigers where he took them to a nine-win season and their first bowl appearance in 32 years in 2003, followed by other bowls in 2004, 2005 and 2007
It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
First off, many of us miss you and your son here in Memphis. Next, you made a great point about how the kids felt about West. It was a couple of boosters that sealed his fate as much as anything else. Success is such a relative thing, isn't it? If someone wants to really see success they only have to go as far as your son, in my book. Great to see here again.
bigtigercharlie Wrote:Until you buy season tickets, donate to the TSF and join the Highland Hundred and donate a little extra time or $ STFU.
For a person who admits he does ABOSLUTELY NOTHING in the way of support for any aspect of the University athletic programs, you spout off more bullsh*t than anyone.
Until you make a committment to help STFU and get out of the way.
Settle down. He has never been close enough to ever get in the way, lol.
kpigout Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:oldtiger Wrote:kpigout Wrote:Would this be considered a successful coach?
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
....or this one?
79...2-14
80...6-10
81...13-3
82...3-6
83...10-6
_________
Total 34-43
I said "for an overall career" not for just a segment. Pulling just a handful of years out of Frank Beamer's or Bill Walsh's careers is ridiculous.
Tommy West's overall career record for 13 years as head coach is 76-79, including five full seasons at Clemson where he had overwhelming financial as well as administrative support. He was fired at Clemson because he couldn't get the job done.
When Tommy has been around 25-30 years, then there is a comparison. For now with your cherry-picking as$, we can do it as well and knock out Tommy's first 2 years at Memphis if you don't wanna look at what Beamer and Walsh did at the beginning of their careers at VT or SF.
Here's my view of Tommy's career.
31-28 overall at Clemson, a winning record.
33-29 at Memphis discounting the 1st 2 seasons to develop his own players and his own system.
So he had 1 bad season at Clemson, and 1 bad season at Memphis.
No matter how you look at it or want to skew numbers, which anybody can do, Tommy is off to a better start then those 2.
Just a note..Tommy took over a winning program at Clemson, and a losing program at Memphis. That is my reason for discounting his first 2 years here.
Yeah, and there have been 2 disaster seasons here, 3-9 and 2-10. With one more win during those 2 trainwrecks, when there were some very close losses, his record would be over .500.
Also, without the 5-19 of those 2 seasons, would we even be having this discussion? (argument)
Look, West will be the coach this year, and as of right now is the best man for the job, if for no other reason, because its already the end of June. Let's take up this subject, if required, around game #8 or 9, when we'll know a little more. Then we can argue about "excuses" vs. "reasons" and "fault" vs. "circumstance" and all that other fun stuff.
GoFor3 Wrote:It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
Charley Pell (18-4-1 0.80435)
Danny Ford (96-29-4 0.75969)
Ken Hatfield (32-13-1 0.70652)
Tommy West (31-28-0 0.52542)
Tommy Bowden (69-42-0 0.62162)
Yes, I guess we do. He had the worst win-loss record of any coach at Clemson since 1976. His last four years he won 8, 7, 7, and 3 games.
Since DeAngelo left (a player he didn't recruit), the team has gone 9-16. Last year, he went 7-6 losing to three Sun Belt teams and struggling to beat several other weak teams like Marshall, Tulane, Rice, and SMU by a combined 10 points.
If that's your definition of "success" I feel sorry for you.
I consider Paul W Bryant a successful football coach. Everyone else sucks
the other Greg Childers Wrote:GoFor3 Wrote:It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
Charley Pell (18-4-1 0.80435)
Danny Ford (96-29-4 0.75969)
Ken Hatfield (32-13-1 0.70652)
Tommy West (31-28-0 0.52542)
Tommy Bowden (69-42-0 0.62162)
Yes, I guess we do. He had the worst win-loss record of any coach at Clemson since 1976. His last four years he won 8, 7, 7, and 3 games.
Since DeAngelo left (a player he didn't recruit), the team has gone 9-16. Last year, he went 7-6 losing to three Sun Belt teams and struggling to beat several other weak teams like Marshall, Tulane, Rice, and SMU by a combined 10 points.
If that's your definition of "success" I feel sorry for you.
Togc...this reply is a sad representation of why you know nothing about the program. You have no idea of who you are replying to which is sad since I would bet that 75% of this board knows this man and his son. You see, this man's son was ONE OF OUR PLAYERS! Not going into personal details but his son is a sucess story in many ways, not just on the field. This man and his son represent what is truly great about college sports. Feel sorry for him, lol? You shouldn't at all because he and son are part of the Memphis football family...something that you will never know. I can't believe that you continue to show your lack of knowledge about the program, lol.
Strat57 Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:GoFor3 Wrote:It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
Charley Pell (18-4-1 0.80435)
Danny Ford (96-29-4 0.75969)
Ken Hatfield (32-13-1 0.70652)
Tommy West (31-28-0 0.52542)
Tommy Bowden (69-42-0 0.62162)
Yes, I guess we do. He had the worst win-loss record of any coach at Clemson since 1976. His last four years he won 8, 7, 7, and 3 games.
Since DeAngelo left (a player he didn't recruit), the team has gone 9-16. Last year, he went 7-6 losing to three Sun Belt teams and struggling to beat several other weak teams like Marshall, Tulane, Rice, and SMU by a combined 10 points.
If that's your definition of "success" I feel sorry for you.
Togc...this reply is a sad representation of why you know nothing about the program. You have no idea of who you are replying to which is sad since I would bet that 75% of this board knows this man and his son. You see, this man's son was ONE OF OUR PLAYERS! Not going into personal details but his son is a sucess story in many ways, not just on the field. This man and his son represent what is truly great about college sports. Feel sorry for him, lol? You shouldn't at all because he and son are part of the Memphis football family...something that you will never know. I can't believe that you continue to show your lack of knowledge about the program, lol.
Congratulations to him and his son.
It still has nothing to do with the fact that TW has lost more than he's won over his 13 years as HC.
Strat57 Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:GoFor3 Wrote:It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
Charley Pell (18-4-1 0.80435)
Danny Ford (96-29-4 0.75969)
Ken Hatfield (32-13-1 0.70652)
Tommy West (31-28-0 0.52542)
Tommy Bowden (69-42-0 0.62162)
Yes, I guess we do. He had the worst win-loss record of any coach at Clemson since 1976. His last four years he won 8, 7, 7, and 3 games.
Since DeAngelo left (a player he didn't recruit), the team has gone 9-16. Last year, he went 7-6 losing to three Sun Belt teams and struggling to beat several other weak teams like Marshall, Tulane, Rice, and SMU by a combined 10 points.
If that's your definition of "success" I feel sorry for you.
Togc...this reply is a sad representation of why you know nothing about the program. You have no idea of who you are replying to which is sad since I would bet that 75% of this board knows this man and his son. You see, this man's son was ONE OF OUR PLAYERS! Not going into personal details but his son is a sucess story in many ways, not just on the field. This man and his son represent what is truly great about college sports. Feel sorry for him, lol? You shouldn't at all because he and son are part of the Memphis football family...something that you will never know. I can't believe that you continue to show your lack of knowledge about the program, lol.
Lol...Not to mention that he doesn't even know who recruited DeAngelo...
Go For 3's son wasn't just any player, he was a special player with special character and he continues to be a special person. Too bad ToGC has no clue who he's talking to, just like his comments about Will Hudgens.
Unfortunately though, ToGC has won again. Not won in convincing anyone that Tommy's not the right guy for the job, and not won in leading anyone else to follow him in his hate for Tommy.....but won in continuing to feed his own ego by seeing us respond to the same old tired and twisted comments. I'm beginning to think that his target isn't Tommy or the football program, which he obviously dislikes. But rather, the target is the feeding of his own ego. The more we respond the bigger it gets.
oldtiger Wrote:the target is the feeding of his own ego. The more we respond the bigger it gets.
Biggest crowd he has ever played in front of.
look........the title of your thread is 'What would you consider a successful college football coach?' It never states that you are basing that on a won/loss record except for your 'poll'. So...for the record...here's what makes a great college football coach.
In my opinion there's more to being a 'GREAT' coach than the won/lost record. You see, we've dealt with some of the greatest coaches in modern football history. Dubose,Spurrier,Fulmer,O'Leary' Carr.....schools like Michigan, Ohio state, Alabama, Florida, Georgia Tech,Georgia.....I can go on and on. You see we've dealt with coaches who can stand back and tout their record for wins and how great that makes them look in the eyes of their fans and the general public. But, if you have a son that God has graced with the ability to play on the college football level, and a son that has overcome challenges that few, if any, would have ever credited with making it that far, you would be able to make a judgement about a coaches 'greatness' by a measure greater than what you obviously judge greatness by.
For years I was just like you apparently are. I thought a great coach was the guy who could win 10 games a year.Who could be in a bowl game. Who could be in the hunt for a National Championship. And you know what turned me around? An 18 year old kid. An 18 year old kid with more knowledge than anyone I've ever known. A kid that could see through the bull**** that college football has become. An 18 year old kid who could judge character of a man much better than his father. A kid that passed up many great opportunities to be part of the winningest program because he knew something 'just wasn't right'. Did he make the right choices? I used to wonder, but now,when I look back ,I can say with all certainty...yes, he knew what he was doing far better than I ever would have. Like all fathers in my position I had great designs on what my son would do. When my kid decided he was going to leave the University of Alabama's football program I'll admit that I was very unsure of the decision. But, just like the entire recruiting process I knew it wasn't my decision to make, but his. And after he went through the recruiting process again and decided that Memphis and Tommy West was his future, I knew that he knew that West was a man of character...and that brings me to the point of this whole rambling mess.
As a father I can tell you that no matter what you believe about winning and losing, and how you judge a man by such criteria, you can never replace character with any such record. When you turn your son's life over to a man.....and trust me, you are turning his life over......you can only hope that he never is lead to believe that that win/ loss record is the most impotant thing he'll ever be faced with. What coach West taught my son is that nothing is more important than right and wrong, doing the right thing all the time, and loving the people who are most important in your life more than anything else.And I'll say again..Doing the right thing. That's not always easy.
I'll leave with this thought.I know that many people on this board have no knowledge of my association with the University of Memphis, and Coach West. That's cool with me. I have no idea of what most of you do...and to be honest...that's cool with me too! But I did want you all to know that Tommy West is a man you want in charge. Win, Lose or Draw. There's more to the game of football and the people in it than winning or losing. Too bad you'll never know that ToGC....too bad you'll never know that.
Those that know the story can't read that with a dry eye, GoFor3. We appreciate you and your son....both of you are forever part of the Tiger family and we're very lucky to have both of you pass through our home.
oldtiger Wrote:Go For 3's son wasn't just any player, he was a special player with special character and he continues to be a special person. Too bad ToGC has no clue who he's talking to, just like his comments about Will Hudgens.
Unfortunately though, ToGC has won again. Not won in convincing anyone that Tommy's not the right guy for the job, and not won in leading anyone else to follow him in his hate for Tommy.....but won in continuing to feed his own ego by seeing us respond to the same old tired and twisted comments. I'm beginning to think that his target isn't Tommy or the football program, which he obviously dislikes. But rather, the target is the feeding of his own ego. The more we respond the bigger it gets.
Someone who keeps backing the wrong coach does more damage to the program than someone who asks for a change. The ego being displayed by the happy clappers is off the charts. All I've heard is how classy TW is and how much more successful the program would be if they had a $35M annual budget.
But any discussion about the actual win/loss record or the strength of schedule is summarily ignored. Any discussion of dragging the program down at Clemson is ignored. Any discussion of the last three years is ignored.
Instead, the best the happy clappers can do is attack my fandom and accuse me of hatred of both TW and the football program as a whole. Or, they blame me for the failure of someone else because I haven't donated a few million dollars to the program. Instead of facing facts, they respond with warm fuzzy stories about how nice TW is or malicious attacks on all those who would suggest that he is not the answer.
The truth is that you don't have an answer.
At the end of the season, this discussion will come back. If TW really wants to silence his critics, then he can do his talking on the field. Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it. If Arkelon Hall and the new DC fail to produce this year, the team will be lucky to finish fourth in the division.
Because at the end of the day, the job of the coach is to win.
And then the happy clappers will have to find another excuse.
calfan1 Wrote:I consider Paul W Bryant a successful football coach. Everyone else sucks
When Bear Bryant was an ***'t coach at Vandy he would sit on my grandfather's bed at the end of the hall every night while he checked in the football players.
Depends on the program. Somewhere like Alabama where you have tons of "academic" majors to hide football players in, slack degree requirements, and tons of revenue, in the middle of prime recruiting area ..... is far easier than say Buffalo.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:[quote=oldtiger]
Instead, the best the happy clappers can do is attack my fandom
I cannot attack your, as you say"fandom" because your fandom is phantom! A fan might actully go to a game, PURCHASE season tickets etc.
I can say I might be what you call a happy clapper, but I have been going to games since "Spook" Murphy. I have sat through many 1-10, 2-9 seasons etc, so at least I have an historical perspective of more than your six months.( and i was there when we had to play Southern MS twice in one year and when we played the powerful Quantico Marines)
Tommy West has done more to improve this program than any coach during my time as a real fan. Has he had problems? Yes, has he had set backs? yes!
How many bowl games had we been to before Tommy? How many winning seasons had we had? And as go for 3 points out CHARACTER counts and TW is hell bent on that. How many coaches would throw their best receiver off the team for getting in a fight during a game?
Coach West motto is "do what is right all of the time".
I was pretty vocal in my opinions about RIP and was critical of him for lack of everything in a coach, so was I a happy clapper then! I didn't like Stobart and was critical, was I a happy clapper then?
You "sir laffs a-lot" have no clue.
Yeah I want to be in the conference championship game, yeah I want us in a BCS bowl and yes I want TW to be perfect in every way.
But it takes TIME and MONEY! If you are to blind to see the improvements then there is no discussing with you the opportunities, and goals.
Like I said in my easrlier post to you,...... participate in a MEANINGFUL way or STFU!
As a PSA--I am going to just tell ya'll what is next, so maybe you can save the next few minutes if your life from something similar to closing your head in a car door. Repetitively--
Side A: TW sucks, TW sucks, TW sucks. Yeah--we went to bowls, and they were pissy bowls and we lost and everyone goes to bowls. We never threaten for the title and TW is a mediocre coach who will never win and eventualy result in the University dropping football all-together. Any of you who think differently are stupid morons who wear blue-colored glasses and have no idea what it takes to win college football. Oh yeah--Deangelo Williams is the only reason we ever did anything---
Side B: We believe TW is doing a good job, and the program has made improvements in exposure and winning since he has gotten here. A conf title is on the horizon, and this is chess not checkers. We are willing to donate time and money to help the cause and would rather be positive for as long as we can. With each season comes new optimisim and the beliefe that this is the year we turn it around. We also understand that bowls were rare before TW and believe he has been instrumental in getting us to postseason play. And group A is not real fans just band-wgon wal-mart gripers who do nothing to help the program other than blabble.
There--we can close the thread and carry on with our lives, becasue doubt seriously this thread will be any diff than the other 3,435 about the same murfing thing.
BTW--Tigers win the East in 2008. Write it down--
As much as I would like to be proven wrong, I am pretty sure Memphis will not win the East this year. This year's team is not nearly as good as some of the others in TW's seven years as HC, and none of them won the division. The QB is new to Division 1-A football and will need some time to adjust. The RBs are unproven, so no one can accurately predict about the rushing game. The special teams need to improve over last year's performance. Most of all, the defense needs to improve drastically over last year's. Based on the schedule, they should win eight but every year they seem to blow one or two that they should win. ECU and UCF aren't exactly slowing down to let us catch up either.
bigtigercharlie, you are the one who has no clue. The only reason we went to the bowl games were the six guaranteed bids from C-USA affiliation. How many other Tiger coaches had the luxury of that? Also, bowl eligibility is determined by getting six wins. In the old days, that meant going at least 6-5. Now it means going at least 6-6.
TW may be one heck of a nice guy, but after 13 years in coaching (7 of them at Memphis) he has still lost more games than he has won.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:As much as I would like to be proven wrong, I am pretty sure Memphis will not win the East this year. This year's team is not nearly as good as some of the others in TW's seven years as HC, and none of them won the division. The QB is new to Division 1-A football and will need some time to adjust. The RBs are unproven, so no one can accurately predict about the rushing game. The special teams need to improve over last year's performance. Most of all, the defense needs to improve drastically over last year's. Based on the schedule, they should win eight but every year they seem to blow one or two that they should win. ECU and UCF aren't exactly slowing down to let us catch up either.
bigtigercharlie, you are the one who has no clue. The only reason we went to the bowl games were the six guaranteed bids from C-USA affiliation. How many other Tiger coaches had the luxury of that? Also, bowl eligibility is determined by getting six wins. In the old days, that meant going at least 6-5. Now it means going at least 6-6.
TW may be one heck of a nice guy, but after 13 years in coaching (7 of them at Memphis) he has still lost more games than he has won.
You are so full of it, dude. Do you even know who gofor3's son is? His son is what is real and good about college football. Go find that book of yours that seems to only say West is terrible and look for kickers and find the name Haynes. Maybe then you will take that foot out of your mouth and know that you should apoligize. Oh yeah, this might not be a good time to show up on Normal and mention who you are, trust me.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:At the end of the season, this discussion will come back. If TW really wants to silence his critics, then he can do his talking on the field. Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it. If Arkelon Hall and the new DC fail to produce this year, the team will be lucky to finish fourth in the division.
Because at the end of the day, the job of the coach is to win.
And then the happy clappers will have to find another excuse.
When somebody is gleefully anticipating a bad football season several months before the season ever starts, I have to say that person is not a fan of the program.
Why don't you take your whining and crying over to somebody else's message board and become a fan of some other school? For my money, I don't need you on my message board, and you have now officially become the second person that I have on IGNORE,
Strat57 Wrote:[quote=the other Greg Childers]You are so full of it, dude. Do you even know who gofor3's son is? His son is what is real and good about college football. Go find that book of yours that seems to only say West is terrible and look for kickers and find the name Haynes. Maybe then you will take that foot out of your mouth and know that you should apoligize. Oh yeah, this might not be a good time to show up on Normal and mention who you are, trust me.
I know the name Danny Haynes. I also know that bringing him up is irrelevant to the discussion.
Wins and losses matter. Long after TW is cleaning out his office, I'll still be here.
Greg, I think we will because of the reasons you listed. I am very, very optimistic. Maybe foolishly so, and I am worried about the QB situation. But I think this staff knows how to protect a QB and put them in high % situations.
Defense--Freddy Barnett-Greg Terrel,Greg Jackson , BEASTS. Winston Bowens is gonna be a monster, and word around the reservation is that Demetrius Culpepper is also a stud that is going to turn heads. JOsh Weaver has moved to LB and I think he will create Havoc . Havoc I say--and Brandon Patterson can play ball. Not to mention Grandberry is back and will make plays. In short, I think there are a few potential NFL players on this defense and they have gotten faster and more ath overall. In all seriousness, Bowens, Weaver, and Patterson will play pro ball. Culpepper and Barnett may too. Now, I am not saying someone is gong in the first--but Josh Weaver and Winston Bowens are awesome aths that are gonna blow people up.
Special teams--kicking is a concern--but Grandberry showed last year he can fly and will just get better. Cam Baker is said to have 4.27 speed--give a guy like that the ball in the open field and anything can happen.
Offense--the line is solid and Brandon Pearce is back to continue to steam roll people. How many sacks have you seen the last few years? Thye coaches will protect Hall early, rolling him out with limited options if nothing is there until he catches up. Pitts needs to step up, but there is a talent infusion at RB with the Miami kid and Steele, who many think will take the job. At TE, Brett Russel is tremendous and may get an NFL look. Devon O is a great ath and will also be a stud TE before it is over. Big, fast, ath--not much more you can ask for in a TE. Duke Calhoun is a sure fire NFL reciever but I think Singleton is too. You can't coach 6-8 and that guy was dominant against corners on the fade. This team is hungry, bigger, faster, and ready to win. There is more talent than before, I really believe that. I am not sure how you can think they are worse--but hey--to each their own. I have not even mentioned Jeremy Rockette or Corey Mills.
I say the East is in reach in 2008 and I am gonna stick by it. Jump on the bandwagon bro, cause the seats are still good.
That's the beauty of the preseason--the team is still undefeated.
For this team to win the east, it would have to be the best team in TWs career at Memphis. Even better than the 9-4 team with DeAngelo Williams, Danny Wimprine, Mo Avery, and Stephen Gostowski. There are way too many "ifs" for me to do anything but predict another middle of the pack season. Heck, if Arkelon Hall gets injured or fails to produce, the team is looking at another losing season.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it.
This is not directed at toGC specifically, I'm just using his quote.
"Scraping by with a 7-6 record . . . ", which means 7-5 + a bowl loss or 6-6 and a bowl win. "Scraping by" is a sentiment that quite a few people share, judging by posts and replies to CA articles. Does everyone remember not all that long ago, when such results were looked at longingly?
Herff Tiger Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it.
This is not directed at toGC specifically, I'm just using his quote.
"Scraping by with a 7-6 record . . . ", which means 7-5 + a bowl loss or 6-6 and a bowl win. "Scraping by" is a sentiment that quite a few people share, judging by posts and replies to CA articles. Does everyone remember not all that long ago, when such results were looked at longingly?
5 seasons ago. How things have changed in 5 years.
oldtiger Wrote:Herff Tiger Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it.
This is not directed at toGC specifically, I'm just using his quote.
"Scraping by with a 7-6 record . . . ", which means 7-5 + a bowl loss or 6-6 and a bowl win. "Scraping by" is a sentiment that quite a few people share, judging by posts and replies to CA articles. Does everyone remember not all that long ago, when such results were looked at longingly?
5 seasons ago. How things have changed in 5 years.
I know how much you miss the good old days of losing seasons, but the rest of us would like to progress past that. Especially considering that we play one of the weakest schedules in college football.
Yes, things have changed. Instead of going 5-6 against a tough schedule we go 7-6 against a bunch of cream puffs. Is that supposed to be progress?
The school is bringing in more money and there is more interest. Progress indeed sir.
egrizzard Wrote:The school is bringing in more money and there is more interest. Progress indeed sir.
If there is more interest, how do you explain the three year drop in attendance? Wouldn't that normally mean less interest?
the other Greg Childers Wrote:oldtiger Wrote:Herff Tiger Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it.
This is not directed at toGC specifically, I'm just using his quote.
"Scraping by with a 7-6 record . . . ", which means 7-5 + a bowl loss or 6-6 and a bowl win. "Scraping by" is a sentiment that quite a few people share, judging by posts and replies to CA articles. Does everyone remember not all that long ago, when such results were looked at longingly?
5 seasons ago. How things have changed in 5 years.
I know how much you miss the good old days of losing seasons, but the rest of us would like to progress past that. Especially considering that we play one of the weakest schedules in college football.
Yes, things have changed. Instead of going 5-6 against a tough schedule we go 7-6 against a bunch of cream puffs. Is that supposed to be progress?
Now you're just being a jerk, the reason a lot of the long-time members despise you. No one misses "the good old days of losing seasons" of course, and no one even hinted at that. Your cute little smarmy wise-ax remark let's you grin to yourself, and if your mommy sees it she'll tell you what a smart boy you are 'cause you made a funny, but it does absolutely nothing for the discussion we're having here.
When West started, all the talk was "bowl game". Every time Tiger football was discussed, going to a bowl came up. In nearly every article, if not all, about Tiger football, "bowl" was mentioned. "Bowl" "bowl" "bowl" "bowl" "bowl" was the drumbeat. West was of the opinion that the Tiger program would not get there any time soon, if at all, by playing the OOC schedule it had been and the conference schedule, where you're going to lose a couple. This "bunch of cream puffs" schedule is what nearly every "big-time" school does too. Look at LSU: App St, Troy, North Texas, Tulane. A D-IAA and 2 Sun Belts. Yes, of course, I know you're going say "Well look at LSU's conference schedule". So what? They're in a conference of their peers. And guess what, we are too. If you don't like our conference "cream puffs", too f'in bad, because that's the conference we're in. West didn't have a damn thing to do with it.
And yes, I do think 7-6 is progress, coming on the heels of the 2-10 trainwreck of a season (the only losing season out of the last 5). Do you understand that progress is not a straight-line, upward path, there may be setbacks along the way? Its not flipping a switch and all of a sudden you have all the right players and all the right backups and all the right coaches you need for a perennial powerhouse program.
8 losing seasons in a row, the longest streak in Tiger history, came to an end under West. That's a pretty big hole to progress out of. That was the point of my original comment, those who claim that just winning seasons will no longer cut it may be getting a little ahead of themselves with their expectations. What is it that makes them think we should do so much better? All the investment in the program? That huge budget that allows scouring the country for top players or to keep proven assistants?
JMO, but I think it is only fair to give Tommy a mulligan the season after his heart attack....
Last season..it was the Taylor Bradford murder. Our team psyche never really recovered from that.
Nobody wants to go back to the losing seasons...but longtime Tiger fans and supporters understand what our program is up against....and have supported our team, our coaches and our players even through the 1-10s and the 4th and 27s. It is what made the New Orleans Bowl win so very sweet.
Memphis has been swimming upstream in shark infested waters for a long time...
I guess one can look at the glass and argue if it is half full or half empty...JMO again...but 4 bowl games in 5 seasons...I'll have to lean towards the perspective of it being half full.
The team is also 16-21 (43.2%) over the last three years.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:The team is also 16-21 (43.2%) over the last three years.
I know you cannot read me, but maybe someone can quote me.
You are hopelessly ignorant. You take anything you can to twist it into a negative to fit your agenda.
We had
8 losing seasons in a row before Tommy.
We have had
4 winning seasons out of the last 5 under Tommy.
He rebuilt this program from crap into a winner in 3 years.
That is success you freakin' imbecile. In anyone's book but yours.
Look for every negative that you can from schedule to conference to percentages to whatever the hell it is that gives you giggles . You wanna throw the 2-10 season into the numbers as if that makes the 4 saesons surrounding it into an average of losing seasons. You can twist those numbers all you want, but he has still won 4 out of the last 5. Period. The bottom line is that no matter how much you hate it, Tommy is a winner.
Too bad for you .
Herff Tiger Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:oldtiger Wrote:Herff Tiger Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Scraping by with a 7-6 record against one of the worst schedules in college football will no longer cut it.
This is not directed at toGC specifically, I'm just using his quote.
"Scraping by with a 7-6 record . . . ", which means 7-5 + a bowl loss or 6-6 and a bowl win. "Scraping by" is a sentiment that quite a few people share, judging by posts and replies to CA articles. Does everyone remember not all that long ago, when such results were looked at longingly?
5 seasons ago. How things have changed in 5 years.
I know how much you miss the good old days of losing seasons, but the rest of us would like to progress past that. Especially considering that we play one of the weakest schedules in college football.
Yes, things have changed. Instead of going 5-6 against a tough schedule we go 7-6 against a bunch of cream puffs. Is that supposed to be progress?
Now you're just being a jerk, the reason a lot of the long-time members despise you. No one misses "the good old days of losing seasons" of course, and no one even hinted at that. Your cute little smarmy wise-ax remark let's you grin to yourself, and if your mommy sees it she'll tell you what a smart boy you are 'cause you made a funny, but it does absolutely nothing for the discussion we're having here.
When West started, all the talk was "bowl game". Every time Tiger football was discussed, going to a bowl came up. In nearly every article, if not all, about Tiger football, "bowl" was mentioned. "Bowl" "bowl" "bowl" "bowl" "bowl" was the drumbeat. West was of the opinion that the Tiger program would not get there any time soon, if at all, by playing the OOC schedule it had been and the conference schedule, where you're going to lose a couple. This "bunch of cream puffs" schedule is what nearly every "big-time" school does too. Look at LSU: App St, Troy, North Texas, Tulane. A D-IAA and 2 Sun Belts. Yes, of course, I know you're going say "Well look at LSU's conference schedule". So what? They're in a conference of their peers. And guess what, we are too. If you don't like our conference "cream puffs", too f'in bad, because that's the conference we're in. West didn't have a damn thing to do with it.
And yes, I do think 7-6 is progress, coming on the heels of the 2-10 trainwreck of a season (the only losing season out of the last 5). Do you understand that progress is not a straight-line, upward path, there may be setbacks along the way? Its not flipping a switch and all of a sudden you have all the right players and all the right backups and all the right coaches you need for a perennial powerhouse program.
8 losing seasons in a row, the longest streak in Tiger history, came to an end under West. That's a pretty big hole to progress out of. That was the point of my original comment, those who claim that just winning seasons will no longer cut it may be getting a little ahead of themselves with their expectations. What is it that makes them think we should do so much better? All the investment in the program? That huge budget that allows scouring the country for top players or to keep proven assistants?
Good point.You have a great grasp on the fact that the assistants are crucial. They recruit, work hours that most would not accept, and the best have inroads that help get great players. The recruiting budget needs to be double what it is today. It is as important as any one part of a program. Unlike Cal who can pay top guys, we have trouble attracting them and then keeping them. Tim Walton left once to go to Syracuse...hear that, a school that is a BCS member and hasn't seen good football in so long that they don't care about it much anymore. We couldn't keep a great recruiter and a rising coach because Syracuse was better dollar-wise, lol.
At the end of the day, nothing changes. Those who care and support the school will continue to take that approach while those who sit on their wallets and whine will be continue to be like baying hounds. No one is going to be persuaded to change their minds. Either you want to win or you say that you do. Talk is cheap, lol. That is why some don't donate or support anything connected with the school. Even if you dislike sports or one particular situation, there is no reason not to spend $35 to the Alumni Association at $50 as a minimum TSF donation...none. These threads are about to die because many recognize the true agenda of some and are tired of even acknowledging them as fans. Besides, when some stoop to attacking former players and their families, the game is over. Two good kids with great families have been treated with a lack of class and that tells me that there is no logic to continue to even discuss things. No crystal ball is needed to know that Togc will always have the last post in a thread and never say anything more than his "valued" opinion that West is a loser.
kpigout Wrote:Strat57 Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:GoFor3 Wrote:It's apparent to me you judge by a different standard of real success
Charley Pell (18-4-1 0.80435)
Danny Ford (96-29-4 0.75969)
Ken Hatfield (32-13-1 0.70652)
Tommy West (31-28-0 0.52542)
Tommy Bowden (69-42-0 0.62162)
Yes, I guess we do. He had the worst win-loss record of any coach at Clemson since 1976. His last four years he won 8, 7, 7, and 3 games.
Since DeAngelo left (a player he didn't recruit), the team has gone 9-16. Last year, he went 7-6 losing to three Sun Belt teams and struggling to beat several other weak teams like Marshall, Tulane, Rice, and SMU by a combined 10 points.
If that's your definition of "success" I feel sorry for you.
Togc...this reply is a sad representation of why you know nothing about the program. You have no idea of who you are replying to which is sad since I would bet that 75% of this board knows this man and his son. You see, this man's son was ONE OF OUR PLAYERS! Not going into personal details but his son is a sucess story in many ways, not just on the field. This man and his son represent what is truly great about college sports. Feel sorry for him, lol? You shouldn't at all because he and son are part of the Memphis football family...something that you will never know. I can't believe that you continue to show your lack of knowledge about the program, lol.
Lol...Not to mention that he doesn't even know who recruited DeAngelo...
In fact, Fichtner was working him when DW was 14 and Randy was at ASU. West sealed the deal with major help from HH members who showed #2 the love on signing day. I remember that day fondly, lol. If you recall, he faxed an unsigned LOI back to Fayettville, lol. That didn't make him popular with his coach and the local Wynne fans. In the end, he made the right choice and now is in the NFL and loves the program to this day.