NCAAbbs

I think I know how this one will go...

Wait Tim Smith was valuable?

I voted Pigram, because Tim Smith made himself too valuable. He never passed the freakin ball, so if he had a bad night then the team did. Pigram is a much more complete player in my opinion, and therefore has more true value to his team. Smith was a heck of a player, but unfortunately for him, it seemed as though the coaching staff never stood up to him and helped in his life. He probably left ETSU the same sort of person he came as...and he always seemed pretty arrogant from an outsider's point of view. I don't see that in Pigram to be honest. Doesn't mean that Pigram isn't cocky (I think he is VERY confident in himself) but it doesn't seem to affect his ability to be a teammate first, and an individual player second. Smith had those relationships switched around I believe.

I say Pigram too, but I'll qualify that by saying that I was big Timmy fan. Under proper leadership (Wadood + Fields), he was a force. Without that leadership, we obviously weren't very good. Alas, we've already been down that road.

Let me throw this hypothetical out there: How good would we have been with CP in the Wadood/Fields era? Would we have been better? Or Worse? We seemed to have great chemistry then and the perfect complement of star/role players. CP might have upset that chemsistry. On the other hand, we may have been talking about us losing in the Sweet 16 in 04?

I hate to say it because withOUT Zak and Jerald he was garbage, but I voted for Timmy. The bottom line is without him, ETSU doesn't get to the NCAA tournament those two years, and yes, most will make the same argument that we would have beaten Cincinati and Wake Forest if he wasn't on the floor being a moron at the end. Now, I'm going to also add that if CP gets ETSU to the NCAA tournament, I reserve the right to change my opinion.

***What a moron I am to try and post with a hangover.

I vote Timmy. Zak and Jerald knew when Timmy was going to drive and look to pass it off and when he was going to shoot (so they knew where to position). He also took them to the NCAA's. CP - his team mates (the first 2 years) did not know when he was going to shoot, pass, or drive. Unfortunately this ended up making him look like a better player on the nights he was on. Last year CP was better but his teammates still did not know where to be. I think next year the team will play better and not lose to any team worse than ETSU. With Timmy on the team the last 3 years - ETSU goes to the NCAA's 2 times.

Everybody in the gym knew that, he was never going to look to pass.
Unless he abosulelty had to and the meant at that last second with 3-4 defenders surrounding him. Now 95% of the time he would go ahead and try and throw up a shot but yeah about 5% he tried to kick it to someone else.

Zak and Jerald without Tim couldn't get there, with him they could. Without Zak and Jerald Timmy wasn't worth much. What it tells me is that to be successful at the college level you have to have a TEAM, not a Michael Beasley, OJ Mayo, or KEVIN MARTIN type superstar. Like I said, we go to the NCAA's this year, the vote can be changed.

Timmy....no contest

Zak and Jerald were sophomores before Smith arrived. Yet still they advanced to the So Con semifinals- losing only by a point to College of Charleston- in Charleston- in overtime- and STILL lost by only 0.8 of a second.

As freshmen and sophomores, Zak and Jerald's record in the conference was 24-8. They won two division titles.

You're telling me in 2003 and 2004 ETSU couldn't have made a run with Oatman, playing a more deliberate style offense with fewer turnovers and mistakes?

PLEASE!

Smith is the most overrated basketball player I have ever seen at any level.

No- scratch that. The most overrated basketball player I have ever seen that did not play for Science Hill.

Thats what I am saying, Oatman had Zero offense at ETSU. Smith was raw when he got here but contributed, he actually improved as a Sophmore but majorly regressed as a Junior and by the time he was a senior he was nothing but a giant ego.
Oatman was a borderline Div I player who probably should have been a star player at a Milligan not trying to lead ETSU to the NCAA's. I don't see it happening with Oatman at the point, not with the type of offense ETSU ran. Makes no sense to slow down the offense with studs like Wadood and Fields who can run the floor because the PG couldn't keep up with that pace.

R

Let's say Oatman is a bum then (which I don't buy, but regardless).

How 'bout Lawson on the point? ETSU wins the So Con easy still, and against Wake they don't go for long stretches without scoring because Smith is too focused on himself, he actually feeds the ball to Fields, and he throw away the game at the end.

Furthermore, any legitimate PG could have won with Zak and Jerald. Smith held the Bucs back, plain and simple.

Fan1, Just curious....is this how you thought it would go?

Ok, let's reverse roles, put CP on the 02-03 Bucs and put Tim Smith on the Bucs the past two seasons. CP playing out of position at PG like he did last year would have done a better job than Tim Smith running the point.

Exactly!

Everyone loves to blast on Smith, so I was guessing everyone would say Pigram was better.

I'm not for or against Tim Smith, but he did some things for the basketball program that hasn't been done since the 90's.

1. He brought higher excitement to ETSU basketball games. People talked about him and the team around the water cooler. The local and national press talked about him and ETSU basketball was back at a high level.
2. He sold tickets. I took people to the games and they went back because of his and the teams fast and flashy style and his sometimes unbelieveable shots [yes he took bad shots, yes, he should have passed more], but he was still exciting, he and the team put thousands of fannies in the seats.
3. He made Gerald and Zakee better and they made him better, because his speed up and down the court, his steals, opened up the fast break and high flying dunks and Gerald and Zakee could handle Tim when needed. Coach Bartow didn't handle him correctly or wouldn't. I heard to many times, " just give Timmy the ball and let him do his thing". Great coaching, yea right.
4. When Gerald and Zakee graduated, there was no bigs waiting in the wings or was recuited by Bartows staff that came anywhere close to their talent and their all out will to win. 5.Coach Bartow said many different times," Timmy has to step up and be the team leader", "its Tims team now", a role that was forced on him but did not fit Tim and a role that he had never had. Its the Peter Principle, people are great in their current role but cannot perform the same when given more responsibility. This was not Tims fault, it was the fault of Bartow.
6. With proper coaching and better recuiting, we could have won the lowly A-Suck league, especially on our home floor, but we have had neither and I don't expect to see any difference in coming seasons unless Belmont and others drop out.
7. Its a shame to say, but maybe its better that we went to the A-Suck because our program is nowhere close to what it once was and the Southern has definitely improved.

1. National attention? Perhaps, but this is what I hate about basketball- it's not about whether you win or lose, but how many sneaker ads you do.

2. Hardly. Show me where ETSU attendance increased by any significant numbers.

3. Jerald and Zakee were improving without Smith. I wonder how good they would have been if they had a traditional point guard feeding them the ball instead of a guy who wanted to do it all himself and was notoriously poor in the clutch- the Furman game the only exception in four years in numerous opportunities.

4. Sneed? Nuckles?

5. Previous posters have said that Smith's selfish play was even there in the AAUs. There was a reason why ETSU got him, and his AAU teammates all went to major schools.

6. You're putting waaaaay too much of this on Bartow. Bartow won 24 games after Smith left. That's not coincidence.

7. Agreed to a certain extent- except I would rather finish .500 in a varsity league than win JV championships, wouldn't you?

I know that the Chattanooga vs ETSU game in Johnson City during 2003-2004 season was the largest crowd since 1992 or 1993. I am pretty sure the attendance averages for that season was also that highest since 1993 or 1994.

Do you think the Chattanooga game drew a large crowd because of Smith individually, or because it was a traditional rival and ETSU had a team that could beat them?

I mean come on. What ten is implying is that Smith sold tickets. That doesn't mean a one game event thing, unless it was "Tim Smith Night."

You'd want to show a jump for a season total. 2003-04 was the first basketball season after football was dropped. ETSU bragged that their hoops attendance did not suffer- not that it increased- that it remained the same.

Yea Pitt, and ETSU won 24 games in the A-Sun, so which is it? Either the A-Sun sucks and Bartow won against weaker competition or he's a good coach.

Now, we've had the Oatman debate before, he was what he was. As for Ryan Lawson, a good player for what he was. but can you honestly sit and think that ETSU would have done better or gotten further with him instead of Tim Smith? You can't be serious.

I voted for Pigram, but Smith did some good things for the program, and some bad. He ceratinly generated a lot of fan interest. There are probably more posts about Smith than all other ex-players combined.

I do know that UTC had a healthy fear for Smith. After we left the SoCon, I heard Shulman say more than once he would not play ETSU until after Smith graduated.

I'd be curious to see this question posed after Pigram's senior season. Courtney was in a tough spot last year. He played out of his natural position, but still had a good year. He could have a monster year next year.

Here's another question, if we had another point, & Smith were a 2-guard, how would things have gone?