NCAAbbs

Not too sure if anyone will see this or not, but after reading several posts over on the http://www.ninernation.net website, I wanted to respond to the 49ers fans who are clearly frustrated at the slow-pace of football progress, and one of them compared the possible 5-year time delay with the much quicker transition times made by South Alabama, Western Kentucky, and one or two others.

USA and WKU both have a FBS-level conference-affiliation waiting for them. There's nothing to negotiate, no one to persuade. They just have to step forward, and they're in. Also, at least in the case of South Alabama, there is already a decent, semi-convenient, 41,000-seat stadium available for their immediate use. The stadium (Ladd-Peebles) has been the home of the Senior Bowl for over 50 years. It is not NFL-quality but it is not a dump, either. WKU has a much smaller venue-- they're going to have to work just to get it up to 25,000. But still, at least there's no institutional arguments over where to put the damn thing-- it's already there.

I am sure that for many UNCC fans (sorry, I have just always thought of y'all that way since the Sun Belt days and the '77 F4) these comparisons will be no excuse for the way that their university-leadership has been dragging its feet on this. In one sense, it is frustrating to me, too, because I think they would be an ideal addition to C-USA. But adding I-A football is a huge, HUGE undertaking under any scenario. When the stadium is non-existent, and no (I-A) conference is waiting in the wings, it just takes time.

A kind post. Thanks, NG.

The school (and the city) has undergone tremendous growth over the years to the point that it's almost unrecognizable from the 1970s. Some use the 'UNCC' in an insulting way ... but I suppose you can't forget where you came from. I'd love to hang a UNCC Final Four jersey on my wall someday!

I'd bore you to tears if I described all the roadblocks in getting football back after a nearly 60 year absence. But, suffice to say, the frustration is not just a matter of the timeframe for getting a team on the field. It's a lot more involved than that. ...and I could write a book about it, if I wanted to! I appreciated the reassurance that "it just takes time" ... oh, how I wish that were true. You'd be amazed at the fight that was sustained to just get a football study. A lot of forces - both internal and external - were at work to prevent football from ever occuring.

As far as stadiums go, the city of Charlotte does have some options. There's the 24k seat stadium that was built next to the old campus where UNCC used to play football in the 1940s - now a historical landmark. But the stadium needs to be renovated and parking is a mess. There's also the NFL stadium that the Panthers use.

But the best option might be the one they're planning - temporarily expanding the soccer field (which holds 4000 now) while building an on-campus stadium similar to the one UCF built.

It's also nice to be wanted back into Conference USA. But without Cincinnati, Marquette, Louisville, etc - I don't know if it's a good idea to re-join anymore. If Memphis ever bolts, what is left for basketball?

Once burned, twice shy. I can appreciate that. But in all candor-- if not C-USA, then where?

Charlotte really needs to be one of the ones spearheading an effort to start an FBS league in the A-10 or CAA. There are enough schools discussing upgrades to make a new football conference feasible. The only challenge will be getting enough non-participants to move to the SoCon or whichever league of the A-10 and CAA isn't sponsoring the league.

If Charlotte doesn't go that route, I'd really think the Sun Belt would have both them and Georgia State on the radar. It's been a while, but both schools were members of the Sun Belt. Now that Denver has announced their inevitable departure, the only thing that needs to happen is to get UALR and UNO out of the way.

Even if Memphis and/or Central Florida both leave Conference USA, Charlotte and Georgia State would make excellent institutional and geographic fits in Conference USA.

I think that-- once Charlotte and Georgia State actually have "FBS"-level football teams up and running, they would both be great additions to C-USA.

Geographic fits? Doesn't ECU complain about traveling to El Paso all the time? I think even the Sun Belt is closer.

As far as re-joining C-USA, keep in mind that Charlotte is going to want to be in a conference where it can continue to chase basketball at-large bids. Don't forget - there's a lot of money that sustains athletic departments with the CBS contract (right now, conferences are paid about $1million per game (over 5 years) in the March Madness bracket). Take them out of a conference with Xavier, St. Joe's, Temple (not to mention UMass, Rhode Island, Dayton, GWU, Saint Louis, & Richmond) and put them in a Memphis-less C-USA and you're likely to lose millions on the CBS contract alone. As I said, there's not much to entice Charlotte to join with their rivals all gone. They were the powerhouses.

Charlotte expected to grow to 30,000 by 2020, but recently changed its mind and now believes it has the infrastructure to grow to 40,000 within 12 years. Combine that with one of the nation's largest and growing tv markets and I think you can set your sights higher than Conference USA ... as long as you can keep your sports strong. It's nice to be wanted, but I'm not sure Conference USA is necessarily what Charlotte wants right now.

All well and good, but it doesn't really answer the question:

I think anyone who posts to these boards understands quite well that Charlotte will never be in the ACC so long as UNC, Duke, Wake, and State have anything to say about it. The Big East, with 8 football members, might-- at least theoretically-- want to expand at some point in the future, and Charlotte might-- at least theoretically-- be given an invitation to join when and if that expansion does occur.

I am not saying that either of those possibilities can never come true. I am saying that Charlotte should think long and hard about whether it want to commit the resources necessary to create and sustain FBS-level football, on the assumption that both of them will come true, and will do so on a time-schedule that will justify the expense, which of course must be borne up-front and without any outside assistance by Charlotte, alone.

Hey! There's life here too! Keep it up guys!

FBS A-10 South: (*non-football member)
Charlotte/Appalachian State (SoCon)
Georgia State (CAA)/Georgia Southern (SoCon)
Old Dominion (CAA)/James Madison (CAA)
St. Louis

FBS A-10 North: (*non-football member)
George Washington*/Delaware (CAA)
Massachussets/Fordham*
Xavier*/Dayton*
Temple

Three of the five non-football members are needed for 6/5 compliance. In the event Xavier and Dayton are nabbed by a post-split Big East, the conference can stay at twelve schools.

The FCS CAA absorbs the remainder of the A-10, but donates Richmond and UNC-Wilmington to the SoCon:

FCS CAA North:
La Salle*/St. Joseph's*
St. Bonaventure*/Hofstra
Rhode Island/Northeatern

FCS CAA South:
Towson/William & Mary
George Mason*/VCU*
Duquesne*/Drexel*

Maine, New Hampshire, and Villanova continue their football-only membership, while Stony Brook removes its football program from the Big South.

The SoCon gets Richmond and UNC-Wilmington for its efforts:

FCS SoCon North:
Richmond/UNC-Wilmington*
Elon/UNC-Greensboro*
Western Carolina/Davidson*

FCS SoCon South:
Samford/Chattanooga
The Citadel/College of Charleston
Wofford/Furman

Charger, do you have any sort of estimated time-frame on when all that would happen? I'm guessing somewhere between 40 years from now and never.

Not bad. Some pretty good ideas in there.

If you want to try to turn the A-10 into an FBS conference, you might also want to bring in Buffalo&Temple as a pair from the MAC. I know Delaware has been FBS-ready for years and years but chose to remain in the CAA, so that was a smart addition. ODU & Ga. State, I believe, are thinking FBS. I'd probably keep UMass (which is studying a jump to FBS) & Rhode Island as a pair and take out Fordham and perhaps George Washington. St. Joe's has one of the best reputations as a basketball school (they were a 1-seed a couple years ago) and I'd strongly consider them for basketball-only. Saint Louis has invested a lot in their basketball - with a new state-of-the art 10k seat arena (which is sure to sell out) to replace the cavernous 20k arena they hired a HOF coach in Rick Majerus but I'm not sure where they'll end up. The MVC wants them in the worst way and I can't say I blame them. I dunno about Ga. Southern or James Madison. I think Richmond would rather hang themselves than join the SoCon. They may have lost games in recent years, but they're still on a solid enough foundation.

Interesting to say the least - you got my ol' noggin' spinning. Not a bad conversation-starter.

You sound like our chancellor. He talks about finding the right conference & bowl game money but seems to expect the landscape to remain the same forever. It's too rigid and pretty foolhardy. Football should be there to protect the school in case another shakeup occurs, IMO.

Take USF, for instance. They took the field as a IAA independent (later a IA independent) in 1997. They did not join C-USA until 2003. The whole reason they started football was because they were terrified that they would end up somewhere like the Big South. They thought ahead, prepared themselves, and came out smelling like a rose. UAB was also IAA/IA independent from 1991-1998.

Charlotte has been studying football since January, 2007 and likely won't stop studying until at least September of this year. Then it will wait 5 years to prepare to be a FCS football school. Charlotte could be looking at they years 2017-18 to finally become a FBS independent. Do you really think it would be wise to look at the present day Conference USA to determine whether or not to start-up football? Who knows what the future holds?

IMO, if the school concentrates on building football up the right way, the school will be able to adapt to however the conference picture falls into place. Patience.

And Charlotte just might be the next USF. But it also just might be the next Louisiana Tech (speaking here solely of football, not other sports and certainly not academics).

UAB is actually a great example. If Charlotte makes the necessary investments to obtain a "IA"-type football program, and winds up with UAB-type performance on the field to show for it, will Charlotte still be able to look back and say, "Yes, that was the right decision."?

No, and of course that was not my advice. Rather, my advice was-- in so many words-- to not look at USF's incredible good fortune and blithely assume that the same outcome will happen for anyone else. I use the word "fortune" very deliberately, not only because that describes the financial windfall that USF receives as a member of the Cartel, but also because USF benefited from events over which they had no influence, and which no one predicted. Namely, accidents of geography and the cannibalistic orgy that ripped apart the Big East and C-USA in 2003. Might something like that ever happen again? Sure. Should Charlotte or anyone else create a "IA"-football program from scratch in the joint-expectation that it will happen, *And* that Charlotte will be one of the beneficiaries?

Charlotte should create a football program for the sake of creating a football program. That's what USF & UAB did, as well as many other "IA"-football programs from scratch. Football is long overdue, anyway - especially considering the potential size of the school. There's a lot of people in the Charlotte metro area that don't like traveling 2 hours to watch a Saturday afternoon football game.

You would suggest that Charlotte should never create a football program from scratch and just expect to have basketball, etc. to be protected in future conference configurations? USF could not expect/predict the good things that happened to them with football. No one did. But they certainly expected/predicted bad things to happen without it.

The Big East/C-USA situation demonstrated just how far Catholic schools protect each other and try to stay together. There were several very qualified public schools that desired Big East membership. But Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Notre Dame, etc. demanded that fellow Catholic schools be added to in order to balance out the additions of public universities with football. They refused to budge. So the Big East picked up DePaul (???) and Marquette.

With that in mind, it's not a reach to think that Charlotte could be stuck in an awful conference they don't want to be in if they don't do something about it. All the best basketball-only schools (Xavier, St. Joe's, Dayton, Saint Louis and on and on) are typically small, private, Catholic schools with no love for the big public university. In addition, football schools don't give a crap about schools without football. Charlotte could be in a situation where it has incredibly successful basketball teams year after year ... it's baseball and golf and Olympic-sports teams could win Nat'l Championships ... but in the end, still get dumped in a suck-ass conference. ... Like Conference USA! ...


....only teasing.

No, but I am suggesting that Charlotte-- students, alums, fans, donors, etc.-- go into this with its eyes wide-open. And that goes for your wallets, too.

Actually you're not far wrong. Making ends meet in C-USA, year-in and year-out, *is* a stiff challenge. To say nothing of the Sun Belt or the MAC or whatever. And if Charlotte would be okay with something like that, then by all means go ahead at full speed.

There is an upside to a college having a "big-time" football program. Those of us in the South, especially, understand this from childhood. But there is a downside, too. The rise of the Cartel has greatly magnified both halves of the equation, and for a university that is not yet committed one way or the other, the urgent necessity of studying all the pros and cons cannot be emphasized too strongly. That, really, is the advice I would give to Charlotte, or Georgia State, or ODU, or anyone else who is thinking about making this jump. It would be one thing if the Commissioner of the Southeastern Conference called Charlotte's Chancellor and said, "Let's do this starting in 2014" or whenever. But in the absence of such a promise, it really is a huge gamble. Make sure that you can afford to pay if it doesn't turn out like you hope.

Instead of lecturing and making assumptions about how Charlotte is going about this without both eyes open, why not just look at the info that's out there? This isn't a bad start: http://charlotte49ers.cstv.com/auto_pdf/...ility-narr

The full football feasibility report (about 200 pages long) from Dec. 2006 is also available on the website. The school has spent months researching additional info (what, I have no idea) and still has months to go.

I would also point out that mid-sized private schools like Tulane usually have a more difficult experience in spreading out the costs of football among its student body. But I would also argue (and agree with you) that football is a rewarding venture for Tulane that goes beyond budget value.

Probably 2017-2025. The key points will be:

1) Temple not joining the MAC or Big East, who the A-10 would need for their own football league and compliance with the 6/5 rule.
2) Getting FBS commitments from the existing FCS powers.
3) Conference USA and/or the Sun Belt not getting raided and decimating the pool of upgrade candidates-especially by taking Charlotte (see remarks on Temple).
4) No major changes in the NCAA's structure.

Survivor, the reason I moved St. Joe's was so that Temple would be the only A-10 team in the Philadelphia market. If I didn't move Ricmond and UNC-Wilmington, the CAA and/or A-10 would be larger than their present sizes. I moved Rhode Island to the CAA simply because it would be much harder for them to upgrade to FBS-not to say it can't be done, because they are a similar size to some FBS schools, but it would be unlikely for them to make such a move. Rhode Island also plays football in the CAA now, so it does help them move towards an all-sports conference.

You could also have the CAA take in Maine, New Hampshire, and Stony Brook themselves for all sports, and have three of the displaced Atlantic 10 members (say St. Bonaventure, La Salle, and Duquesne) replace them in America East. America East would finally get some members located Between UMBC and Binghamton.

Obviously, if Xavier and Dayton go, there is less movement required from everyone else. If the Big East splits sometime next decade, Xavier and Dayton will probably be the first to go.

ESPN's Andy Katz posted a little blurb that is making its rounds on various messageboards:

This board loves to talk expansion, so I thought I'd pass it along.

That would probably be a good move for Western Kentucky.

I suppose Temple doesn't have much choice except to camp out in the MAC for a while. But it's very hard to picture them there, long-term. Seems like they have little in common with the rest of the league (Philadelphia vs. small-town midwest). Geography doesn't make much sense, either.

Get Boston, Philadelphia, Charlotte, Atlanta, Buffalo, Norfolk, Orlando and Memphis together, and you can sell that conference to television even if the football is terrible at first. How you get the schools in those 8 markets talking to each other, I have no idea, but I think it'd work out for the better for all of them if they could do it. Now that their BCS situation has stabilized, the Big East isn't expanding or splitting unless they're raided again. A split makes perfect sense, but there's nobody in place with the power and vision to make it happen. They'll beat around the bush but ultimately take the path of least resistance, which is to do nothing. Someone of vision needs to make a new eastern conference happen, otherwise nothing is happening.

A new powerpoint demo was released today. I encourage anyone who has read this thread to view it.

http://charlotteobserver.com/static/imag...report.ppt

It looks like Charlotte fits into the WAC Conference quite well.

CAA, SoCon and CUSA projections are relevant to Charlotte, not sure why they have the WAC in there as the fourth conference.

I have posted the idea of a FBS A10 conference before. My friends at UNCC (not a diss, official school name) don't like it, Charlotte alumnus don't like it, but they can't have the old CUSA back. Anyway, it was:

Army, Navy, UMass, Temple, Buffalo, Delaware, James Madison, and Charlotte. Add Rhode Island and George Washington for everything but football. I also thought about Duquesne, St. Joe's and St. Bonaventure because of their seniority.

Great footprint, academics, markets...

Charlotte wants to be in the CUSA right away, but that is not possible at this moment so they should move slow and steady.

Actually, it may make more sense for the CAA to move up rather than the A-10

FBS CAA:
Charlotte (from A-10)/Appalachian State (from SoCon)
Georgia State/Georgia Southern (SoCon)
Old Dominion/James Madison
Temple/Delaware
Massachussets (from A-10)/Drexel*
George Mason*/VCU*

FCS A-10: (*non-football member)
George Washington*/St. Louis*
Fordham*/Duquesne*
Xavier*/Dayton*
La Salle*/St. Joseph's*
St. Bonaventure*/Hofstra (from CAA)
Rhode Island/Northeastern (from CAA)
Towson/William & Mary

A-10 Football only: Villanova, Stony Brook, Maine, New Hampshire

I would still send Richmond and UNC-Wilmington to the SoCon simply to keep all of the conferences at their current size. Obviously, if some combination of Xavier, Dayton, and St. Louis leave for another conference (MVC, Big East, etc.) then those schools might be able to stay put.

The CAA outline above also has 11 public schools (the only exception being Drexel), and the A-10 outline above has 10 out of 14 private schools.

Says who?

I agree with Survivor that the idea of Charlotte "wanting to be in C-USA right away" has little-to-no evidence to back it up. It might possibly be true, or else possibly become true at some point in the future. But to simply assert it as a proven fact is stupid.

I would like to ask Survivor or anyone else who supports the idea of Charlotte as an FBS-level football program: What is your vision of Charlotte football 10 years from now? 20 years from now? Do you think Charlotte could survive as an Independent? If not, what FBS-level conference do you see Charlotte joining? Do you think the A-10 would move up-- together, as a conference-- from FCS? And if not, isn't it apparent that some existing conference would have to invite Charlotte in? What existing conference would do that?

They want to be in a league on par with CUSA or more prestigious; they would have jumped by now if they wanted to float at FCS irrelevancy or Sun Belt mediocrity.

My idea would probably not work with Charlotte, so another scool would have to step forth. I would love to see Holy Cross.

The CAA does not offer a better jump. The A10 is more prestigious, So they should get Delaware and UB right now.

It sounds like if a 'Yes' vote is made by our chancellor later in the year, so then Charlotte may have to wait another 5 years to take the field as an FCS team. So 10 years from now, I'd expect Charlotte to a new FBS program/established FCS program. 20 years from now, I'd like to think there would be 5 games on campus and maybe 1 big game at the Panthers stadium - with everyone in town laughing about how invisible the school was 20 years ago.

I'll just cut to the chase: I think Charlotte would really like to be in a football conference like Conference USA. Even though we left the conference a few years ago, I still enjoy rooting for cusa football teams while watching ESPN's bottom line score updates. But another question could be 'What will the Atlantic 10 look like 10/20 years from now?' or 'What will Conference USA look like 10/20 years from now?' Conferences have changed since '98, '88, '78, '68, etc. If Charlotte decided to re-join Conference USA tomorrow, I'm sure it could happen --- but I'd be really uneasy about it, especially since Memphis and ECU do not appear to be particularly interested in handcuffing themselves to the league.

The main reason to have football is to have football. The school has grown too big not to have it. Another reason is to protect basketball (and athletics in general) for the future. Charlotte has been in the Sun Belt, the Metro, CUSA, the A10 ... and I'm sure something will happen one day where Charlotte will be looking at membership for somewhere else. Without football - I think hope for upward (or even sideways) mobility is pretty bleak.

The tone of the Charlotte football feasibility reports is very pro-CUSA and anti-A10 in my opinion. Not sure why. Granted, the A10 is an incompetently run conference, but it's definitely the better conference to be in if you don't play football. I think perhaps it's just the Charlotte pro-football side trying to convince people the A10 is terrible because their dreams of a football program can't happen there regardless. If they can convince people that they desperately need to get out of the A10, it's another reason to add a football program.

As for a new eastern football conference, first off, don't have the A10 run it, because the A10 doesn't know WTF it's doing. I wouldn't let the A10 run a rec soccer league, let alone a FBS football conference. I'd start with a blank sheet, an entirely new conference without any of the dead weight from the A10.

And to start that new conference, I think you need these 5 programs as your core: Temple, UMass, Georgia St., Charlotte and Buffalo. Those are the #4, 7, 8, 25, and 50 television markets in the country. You can run those 5 markets right up against the Big East football's top 5: Rutgers (1), USF (13), Pitt (22), UConn (29) and Cincinnati (33). Get the Core Five together, and I think you can make a run at all those programs the Big East is stringing along, like UCF (19) and Memphis (47). Add any 8th member you want, and you're still going to have a bigger maximum market potential than the Big East Footballers. Then it's just a matter of catching up on the field. WVU will probably always be good, but the rest of these guys can be had. It just takes the balls to take the fight to them instead of sitting around waving your hands going, "pick me! pick me!" and hoping to get into the Big East. They don't think they need to take anyone else, and with the BCS re-affirming the Big East's membership, they're absolutely right. Unless they're raided again, they're set, no need to split their money among any more members. So if you want to move up in the East, you're going to have to create your own league.

I like your reasoning, do you think the new commish may have a better vision for the conference?

What about Delaware, Army, and Navy for all-sports if those CUSA schools aren't interested? Army and Navy are maligned for only being options in football but really they could be more. Also James Madison looks like another realistic option.

I think the new commish will definitely be better for basketball (she couldn't be much worse), but won't have any interest in football. Xavier seems to be the member that was pushing her hiring, and they don't have football. This is not a conference where people of bold vision go, unfortunately. Though to be fair, only half of the A10 plays football, and those are at wildly different levels. They have enough problems to concentrate on without taking a flying leap on forming a football conference.

As for other potential members of a new Eastern conference: I like Delaware. Good school, great program, great fans. Their problem is they have an administration that will not spend money on athletics. Their facilities across the board are all pretty terrible. They desperately need to replace their aging stadium, but they're not even discussing FBS size for the new one, which they have to build anyway. As soon as they start talking about investing in athletics, they'd go to the top of the list, but their current athletic budget is much smaller than UMass's, and we're the ones who are supposed to be cash-strapped.

Navy? No-brainer if they were interested, but they're not even interested in joining the Big East at the moment. Army could conceivably give it a look if we got the Temple-UMass-Buffalo triangle around them, but even if they were interested, it'd be a mixed blessing to have them. They're not realistically capable of being competitive at any major sport, and they'd probably want a commitment from the conference to keep all athletic budgets below a certain level. Otherwise they risk another CUSA-like retreat. But as long as they have that bowl tie-in for the service academies and not too much trouble scheduling home games, there's no real reason for them to join a conference in football.

JMU is a tough one to figure, because they're spending all this money to build a new stadium that only seats 24,000. I mean, what's the point? It's too small for FBS. Do they want to dominate FCS? Only a handful of programs will have a nicer facility, but who knows whether this division will even still exist in 10 years? In any event, they're listed as being in the #178 market, though they're close enough to both DC and Richmond that that number may be misleading. Another Virginia FCS school to watch is Old Dominion out on the other side of the state in Norfolk. #42 market and a larger enrollment than JMU. They're starting football in '09, have a nice new facility similar to what JMU is building that's expandable, and season ticket sales have been impressive. They have big dreams there.

I think some presence in the VA, MD, DC area would ultimately be necessary to bridge the gap between Temple and Charlotte, and that there are good candidates out there for basketball-only membership, but I think putting that part of the conference together is the easy part. By far the hardest part is getting those first 4 or 5 universities to agree to take the plunge and form the core of a new conference. Once the core is in place, then it becomes much easier for these other programs straddling the boundary between FCS and FBS to say, "okay, if we move up we can play with these guys." It's much easier to commit to being the 6th member as opposed to being the 1st member. I don't know where you'd find the leader who'd put all this together. Historically, all of these schools I've mentioned have had poor leadership, which is why they find themselves in the position they're in today. For a new conference to form, someone has to want to put the captain's hat on and drive this boat.

On the Big East board someone posted that Delaware may expand their stadium to 35k. The topic is called "Fuel for the Fire" I think. I also remember that JMU's stadium will have the ability to expand. Army and Navy is a nice idea for all-sports, but I really don't see that happening, even though it would greatly help the new conference's academic profile.

The leadership is the main question I suppose. I have always thought UMass to have pretty solid leadership with nice hires, even though a guy like Lappas bombed, it wasn't a bad hire. I think if you guys could get something going it would work. I also like RIU and GWU as non-football members.

Yeah, I don't know where the leader/catalyst would come from. Temple obviously can't be the leader, because they're walking a knife's edge with the MAC and can't afford to start talking mutiny with no safe place to land. Buffalo is somewhat in the same situation and has a bit of a public relations problem given how disastrous the start of their FBS program was. Their judgment would be questioned. Charlotte is still fighting to get a FCS team, and figures worst case scenario, they can buy their way back into CUSA. Really only UMass could drive this boat, and traditionally we've been followers, not leaders. I think our AD McCutcheon is doing an outstanding job, but he's definitely a realist. That's part of why he's doing well here, because he's figured out how to work within the limits of UMass's athletic program. I don't know that he's ambitious enough to bring about a revolution like a new conference. I read the minutes of our Athletic Committee meetings, and it's always "maybe the Big East would help us, maybe the Kraft family [owners of the New England Patriots] would help us, maybe the state government would help us." It's never "let's make this happen." Plus there's a high rate of turnover on the governing committee, and some members seem underqualified and haven't even read the previous football study from 2003. There's a lot of spinning of wheels. One possible source of hope: UMass just got a new chancellor from the University of Tennessee, and he's supposedly a sports fan. Maybe he's the catalyst. Whatever it is, we're going to have to get this done ourselves. Nobody is going to do it for us. We have to force the issue.

I have followed your hoops team the last few years under Ford but I think Kellogg is going to be even better. I see you guys cracking the top 25 the next few years. With that kind of clout and the long standing relationship with Temple, I think something could happen. Although I wouldn't depend on Charlotte because they will always be looking at the CUSA or Big East.

Delaware and Buffalo would be ideal candidates too. After that it is up in the air. I believe Holy Cross has a stadium that would qualify, but would they take the chance, I doubt it. Maybe if Army and Navy were brought into the fold. Then JMU could be added to make an even 8. GWU and RIU for non-football.

That would be weak in a number of areas. I do like the idea of bringing big markets together and I think that is what would get it done. Maybe Charlotte would buy in if Gerogia State was invited. I have also thought about Coastal Carolina, just added football a few years back but they are in a booming location.

We have high hopes for the UMass basketball program. I think we'll make a run at the tourney again this year. Kellogg was a critical hire. It will be huge for UMass's psyche if one of our own leads us to victory. The football team looks good too, but has a brutal schedule. Obviously, both major programs making the playoffs at the same time plus an economic upturn would put Massachusetts in the best mindset to invest more in athletics. Some sort of championship would be nice too. In the past couple years we've had the soccer team in the final four, the hockey team in the quarterfinals, the lacrosse team in the finals, the football team in the FCS finals, and the basketball team in the NIT finals, but none of them have been able to close the deal.

As for Holy Cross, they're way too small. Enrollment is about 3000 tops. They're overachieving just remaining where they are. Big time football simply isn't within their means. The only other program in New England besides UMass with even a glimmer of a chance of moving up is UNH. Great program, they've beaten 3 straight FBS opponents: Marshall, Northwestern and Rutgers (good chance Army will be the 4th straight this year). They also have a larger in-state population than Delaware and URI, and New Hampshire is the only state in the Northeast that's growing. The problem for them is that their games are not well-attended and their state is full of notorious cheap skates who will not pay taxes for anything. I wish the fans would show up, their team deserves better. They still have more than twice the attendance of URI or Northeastern though.

I know nothing about Coastal Carolina except that they have a cool nickname and that the physical location of their campus is in the smallest Nielsen market of the schools named. Their average attendance at 7500 is only a couple hundred higher than New Hampshire's, but in their case they're selling out their stadium, so who knows what their real potential is. I would think App St. or Georgia Southern would have the edge on them though, they're selling out too but putting 24k and 19k in the seats respectively, plus they're playing better ball.

The problem is the Southern schools are going to keep talking CUSA, and the Northern schools are going to keep waiting for a Big East invite that's never going to come, and nothing's ever going to get done. Someone needs to want to blaze a new trail.

I mentioned Coastal since they're right by Myrtle Beach and I think in some time they could be pretty big, although they are pretty small right now. They are state supported but really they fit better with Davidson.

With CCU and Holy Cross I guess the days of looking to small schools are over...

JMU's expansion to 25k seats is only the first phase of a three phase expansion project. FBS football would be possible at 25k seats, at least in the short run. There are a number of MAC, Sun Belt, and WAC stadiums with less than 30k seats. JMU's first phase is supposed to be completed in time for the 2011 season, with subsequent expansion to follow. Although the administration hasn't set a timeline beyond phase 1, it's notable that the design and construction contract they awarded was for all three phases. Such a contract would indicate that the school is fairly serious about its plans to expand the stadium to 40-45k.

Here's a link to a video of the phased expansion plans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxibToE1S7A

Chancellor today recommended that Charlotte ad football.

Trustees vote in November. Early word is that's just a formality, majority are in favor.

HISTORIC, EPIC DAY!

Go Niners! Today is a great day!

(Recruits in NC) - (NCSU + UNC + Dook + WF + Appy + UNCC + ECU) = Massively negative number

How about all sport A10 conference with FB
Fordham
Richmond
URI
Charlotte
UMASS
Duquense
Dayton
Temple
Marist
Delaware


St joes, St Bonaventure GW and La Salle join the patriot in all sports (not fb)
ST Louis & Xavier go BE BB should that conference split

PATRIOT FB
COLGATE
HOLY CROSS
LAFAYETTE
BUCKNELL
LEHIGH
GEORGETOWN
VILLANOVA
IONA

PATRIOT BB
COLGATE
HOLY CROSS
LAFAYETTE
BUCKNELL
LEHIGH
AMERICAN
NAVY
ARMY
ST JOES
ST BONAVENTURE
GEO WASH
LA SALLE

How did Marist sneak in there?

Richmond already bailed on A10 Football during the tug of war with the CAA in 2005, there's no reason to believe they'd join a new A10 league with a weaker and more geographically disparate group of teams.

Temple obviously is in the wrong subdivision, unless they move to FCS. The only program currently capable of going in the other direction is UMass, with Charlotte in play starting around 2017. I don't believe Temple would move down, nobody ever has moved down voluntarily except Holy Cross I think, and that was shortly after the two subdivisions were created.

The other A10 members are all running low budget, low attendance operations. Delaware only cares about football, they're not going to leave the CAA for that group.

If the A10 ever again starts another football conference, it will be because the CAA broke up and it will consist of UMass, URI, UNH, Maine, Stony Brook, maybe Villanova, and maybe Albany (especially if Villanova is out). Fordham I bet would be given the option of joining if they went full scholarship, but I don't know that they'd leave the Patriot League. I think the rest would be too far away and/or disinterested, but I'd welcome Charlotte if they wanted to play with us Northerners.

if a10 sponsored fb Richmond would either have to be in for fb or leave a10 altogether due to ncaa regualations.The same for Duquesne, dayton etc
Temple doesnt really seem to be working out in 1a.They give the mac one more team then needed and will most likely be faced with joining the mac for all sports and not just be fb member. The BE doesnt want them so what would they do
Marist was thrown in to since they (and Iona) are FB indy's. Marist is joining some non sensical league that spreads to California. They're a good fit academically with the a10 and seem to be committed to improving their sports programs

I don't believe that's true, there just aren't as many examples of schools that play outside their "home" conference anymore. Most conferences with any ambition will forbid their members from doing it, but it isn't a NCAA rule. When the CAA made its hostile takeover of the A10's football conference, it was Richmond switching sides that tipped the balance and dissolved the A10, because then we were down to only 5 members and would have lost our AQ to the FCS playoffs. Also, Dayton, Duquesne and Fordham would have been forced to join the A10 back in 1997 when the A10 first sponsored football, if that was the rule. Off the top of my head, the only two football programs I can think of that play out of conference even though their "home" conferences sponsor football are Davidson and Drake, which are both Pioneer Football League members. Davidson is otherwise in the SoCon, and Drake is in the MVC, which this year took over the old Gateway Conference in football. So it's still legal,and Richmond could still flake on us like they did in 2005. Of course, what SHOULD have happened is they should have been kicked out of the A10 for doing that, but the A10 is run by a bunch of <censored> who don't care about football or that UMass got screwed out a conference that we basically created and carried for most of its existence, since we're not a Catholic school like most of the A10. I'd stab the A10 in the back in a second if there was a better place for UMass to go.

As for Marist, the problem is they're not willing to put money into their football program. If they were willing to have scholarship players, they could easily have gotten into the Big South with Stony Brook. Just 30 scholarship players would have been enough to get into the NEC. The fact that they're not willing to do that but are willing to play in a non-scholarship conference that stretches from Jacksonville to Indianapolis to San Diego tells you all you need to know about them. The A10 would need to be a full 63 scholarship league, otherwise UMass would have to downgrade its program, and that's not happening.

To provide more perspective on the disparities involved, here's what the current A10 members' football programs look like in terms of average attendance, stadium capacity and scholarship numbers:

Temple: 17,194/68,532/85
UMass: 15,112/17,000/63
Richmond: 5,525/22,000*/63
URI: 3,667/6,580/60
Fordham: 4,365/7,000/50**
Duquesne: 2,104/4,500/30
Dayton: 3,348/11,000/0**
(Charlotte: ?/15,000/63)

* Richmond is replacing its 22k capacity off-campus stadium with a 9k capacity on-campus stadium.

** Fordham does not offer scholarships, but is believed to offer financial aid to football players equivalent to roughly 50 scholarships. Dayton probably provides aid too, but nobody knows how much.

Delaware and Marist, for the record:

Delaware: 22,029/22,000/63
Marist: 853/3,500/0

If you could get them to agree on scholarship numbers, URI, Fordham, Duquesne, Dayton and Richmond could form the core of a competitive A10 conference, except that Richmond absolutely wouldn't join it under any circumstance. Temple, UMass, Delaware and probably Charlotte belong in a different conference, notwithstanding that Richmond has a very good team that would be favored against any of us right now.

Thats alot of info, thanks. You do have good points. I didnt realize Marist had such a poor following. It must just be a 1a rule about conference affiliation and fb then, otherwise ECU or Memphis would be in the BE FB. Temple,Army & Navy are 1a and their primary conference either does not sponsor fb or is 1aa

Actually, Marist's attendance isn't quite that bad. I looked at it more closely, and the NCAA's stats only cover Marist's first home game, which was in a tropical storm. In their two home games since then, they reported attendance of 2,512 and 3,716. Last season they averaged 2,785. Still very low, but not out of place among Fordham, URI, Dayton and Duquesne. And since they can only seat 3,500, their numbers could probably be higher with a larger stadium.

I'm pretty sure there isn't any rule about conference affiliation even in FBS football though. Memphis and ECU aren't playing Big East football because they weren't invited to. It's raised as a potential problem because presumably CUSA would kick out any member who betrays their football conference. But it's not a NCAA rule. ECU would drop the CUSA in a second if that was holding them back from Big East Football membership. They'd play as an independent in every single other sport if it came to that.

If a conference sponsors a sport, a member school must play that sport in that conference, or as an independent. The two football subdivisions are treated as different sports.

Examples:
Villanova plays CAA Football (FCS) not Big East Football (FBS)
Notre Dame plays Football as an Independent, not in the Big East
Central Florida used to play MAC Football (FBS) because the Atlantic Sun did not sponsor Football

Football is the most visible sport affected by this, but the rule holds for all sports. A newsworthy non-football example is the announced beginning of conference play in the Big East for Men's Lacrosse, which will cause Syracuse to give up it's independence in that sport.

Does anyone have a link to the actual NCAA rule? Again, Davidson and Drake are not playing football in their home conferences. A10 Football existed between 1997 and 2006, and Dayton, Fordham, Duquesne and La Salle (when they had football) never played a down in it. When the new Big East lacrosse conference was being discussed, Villanova and Providence not joining it was considered a viable option for them, without the consequence of having to become independent if they didn't. Perhaps there's an exception for sports programs that use fewer scholarship players. All of the football programs named above use fewer scholarships than their corresponding "home" conferences required, and I believe Nova and PC's lacrosse programs were limited or non-scholarship. That wouldn't explain why Richmond was able to switch from the A10 to CAA football though...

I skimmed through the NCAA Rulebook and couldn't find anything about needing to play in your own conference if it sponsors the sport you want to play. There are rules about minimum numbers of members and minimum numbers of sports your conference members participate in as a conference, but presumably once you meet those minimums it doesn't matter what your other conference members do or where they play. I suspect that most conferences have internal rules that say "if we sponsor a sport, and you play it, you have to play it in this conference", but I don't think it's a NCAA rule. And clearly the A10's bylaws don't have that requirement with respect to football, because we had more members who didn't play in the A10 football conference (Dayton, Duquesne, Fordham and La Salle) than who did (UMass, URI and Richmond).

(EDIT: found another example: Loyola doesn't play in the MAAC in either men's or women's lacrosse. They play in the ECAC and Big East respectively, despite the fact that the MAAC sponsors both sports.)