Non scholly football is a stupid idea there is no legitamacy by going that route, imo. I think Campbell is making a mistake by going that route. They have a hard on with the whole idea of bring back football after 50 years that they can't see straight. If ETSU is going to bring football back do it right otherewise it is a slap in the face to your former program and players.
It will be interesting to see who bites.
Right now, you have JU and Campbell. I think Davidson will end up as an associate member, as ASun FB would be a much better geographic fit. That's 3 down, and 3 to go.
As for everyone else...
- USC-Upstate and FGCU will pass. I'm sure they would love to add the sport at some point, but with the expenses of just moving to D-I, I think now is probably not the time.
- Belmont will probably pass as well. I haven't heard a peep from them.
- UNF and Stetson are interesting cases. UNF wants football, and Stetson has had it before. I'm gonna guess that UNF doesn't have the money and Stetson won't want to spend the money, but they might surprise.
- ETSU should go for this...but they'll find a way to bungle it up. Just my guess.
- Mercer, Lipscomb, and Kennesaw State are strong possibilities...all three have discussed it with interest.
IMO:
- The likely scenario is a conference of JU, Campbell, Davidson, Mercer, Kennesaw St, and Lipscomb.
- The best-case scenario includes those 6, as well as ETSU and UNF. Having a former well-known I-AA team and a big rivalry would really help things.
- The worst-case scenario is that nobody bites, and the ASun tries again in a few years.
The key is to get the conference started. Once the conference gets going, schools inside and outside the ASun will start to look at non-scholarship football as a greater possibility. It's one thing to start a new conference, it's another to have a conference there for you to join.
That's great to hear! Glad that Mercer's name is on the potential list. And for the people who are saying non scholarship is not the way, and it's a terrible idea..... sure it's not the best form of football, but you have to crawl before you can walk. So we shouldn't shoot this down and then never have anything.
That's great to hear! Glad that Mercer's name is on the potential list. And for the people who are saying non scholarship is not the way, and it's a terrible idea..... sure it's not the best form of football, but you have to crawl before you can walk. So we shouldn't shoot this down and then never have anything.
I agree with this. It's not like the A-Sun would have to be non-scholarship forever.
There is nothing wrong with a number of Atlantic Sun schools committing to playing non-scholarship football together as a starting point. It helps add stability to the conference and allows the members to grow their programs at sane monetary levels. The previous post saying that they do not have to be non-scholarship forever is on the mark.
Many people here may not be aware of this, but the Northeast Conference started off playing non-scholarship football and with a bunch of associate members in the fold as well, now they are moving toward a 45-scholarship maximum and may eventually be full-scholarship programs within a decade or so. Looks like a very sensible approach.
The Atlantic Sun can start off with Campbell and Jacksonville, grab Davidson and Morehead State as associate members, and then add ETSU and Kennesaw State plus any other current schools who want to start programs. Doing this would provide at least six teams to start with while the Pioneer League gets left with the other seven squads.
In postseason play, the two leagues could compete in the Gridiron Classic, since the Northeast Conference should be leaving that contest and gaining FCS playoff eligibility in the next few years. Several possible scenarios regarding Atlantic Sun football were kicked around on the
Any Given Saturday website during the last couple of weeks.
Great idea. I suspect etsu would be very interested in this option. It allows for it to have a football team where the majority of players would actually be from East Tenn and N. Carolina and SW Virginia, less expensive and much more doable given the lack of community and student support.
For the conference it would really stabilize it and even allow for expansion. (Come on Davidson and Morehead State!).
Hope this develops. Earlier attempts at bringing back football at ETSU were rather lame...kind of like only giving in a nickel and wanting a dollar song.
Mercer needs to pass on football talk
By Daniel Shirley
Last week, Georgia State unveiled a plan that we all knew was coming for some time: The school is going to start a football program.
When the Panthers begin play in 2010 in the FCS, it will give the state five Division I football programs: Georgia and Georgia Tech in FBS play and Georgia State, Georgia Southern and Savannah State in FCS.
Let's hope Mercer doesn't raise that number to six. To be honest, five is probably one too many, and that's not directed at Georgia State. With Dan Reeves running the show, the Panthers actually seem to have a workable plan, although I'm sure Macon's own Chris Hatcher was interested to see that Reeves kind of put down a challenge for Georgia Southern and will make the Panthers pay for that down the line.
The Panthers will be just fine, unlike Savannah State, which has been anything but fine since moving its athletics programs from Division II to Division I. Savannah State was OK in Division II competition, but it certainly wasn't dominant, and its move up made no sense.
That has played out in the years since as Savannah State has struggled in Division I, and Mercer could learn a thing or two from Savannah State's plight. Granted, Mercer's in a bit of a different position in that its programs are already Division I, so adding football wouldn't affect them in many ways.
But it seems it would be wise to get those programs straightened out before taking on the big task of starting a football program. That may seem a little harsh, but the numbers add up to an athletics department that is struggling and is not ready to take on the added weight of football.
During the 2006-07 school year, Mercer's men's programs were ninth in the A-Sun all-sports race, while the women were 10th (last). So far this year, Mercer's men are 12th (last) and the women are tied for ninth, although the softball team is having a strong year and should help that number. Combined, Mercer's men and women are 11th in the conference with fewer than half of the points of the leading school, Belmont.
That points to a department that's not very competitive (remember the Savannah State debacle) and just doesn't need the hassle of another mediocre program. That's what football would be for some time.
On-the-field production is only one part of the equation for having a successful football program. There also needs to be support from a fan base, including the alumni and the surrounding community. That's one of the reasons Georgia succeeds in football: It has the rabid fan base to prove to the university's leaders that football is important, and those leaders follow suit by doing what's necessary to keep those people happy.
It also works the same way at Georgia Tech and Georgia Southern and will eventually be similar, although not to the same extent, at Georgia State. Mercer? That's another story.
Mercer's student and alumni bases are much smaller than Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern and Georgia State. The support for its athletics programs, especially off campus in the Macon community, also lags behind.
Despite what Georgia State has done, Mercer would be wise to address its issues in the sports already on campus before adding the highest-profile of all sports to the problems.
This article appeared in the Macon Telegraph on Tuesday, April 22, 2008.
I think this would be a great thing! I say initially model the conference after the IVY League; play a non-scholarship DI schedule and then just end the season with a conference championship! There is no reason the A-Sun Conference should not sponsor football.
I find Mr. Shirley’s article misinformed and ignorant to say the least. Mercer would be the only private DI football program in the state. Mercer is the only university in the state that offers degrees in law, pharmacy, medicine, and engineering. Mercer has much more football history than every school in the state except UGA and Georgia Tech. Mercer has a much larger endowment that Georgia State, Georgia Southern, and Savannah state.
Football can and should be successful at Mercer University. History is certainly on Mercer’s side, both Georgia and Georgia Tech played their first ever football games against Mercer back in 1892. Wally Butts and Dr. Steadman Vincent Sanford, (the namesake of Sanford Stadium), both graduated from Mercer and the legendary Bernie Moore also coached football at Mercer.
Mercer fields Division I athletic teams in nearly every major sport, (with the exception of football – which is coming soon). Former Mercer athletes have played in the NFL, the NBA, Major League Soccer, and Major League Baseball. A Mercer Alumnus is currently the coach of the NBA’s Toronto Raptors.
Mercer’s endowment exceeds $200 million. Georgia State’s endowment is less than half of what Mercer’s is while Georgia Southern’s endowment is roughly ¼ of Mercer’s and Savannah State’s is about 1%. As far an alumni base, think quality not quantity. While I’m sure Savannah State and Georgia Southern have fine bachelor degree programs; Mercer alums boast MDs, JDs, and PharmD degrees – all much more lucrative than the garden variety Southern or Savannah State degree. Plus Mercer’s admission requirements are much higher.
I hope that the next time Mr. Shirley chooses to express his opinion he will do a little research so that the opinion at least sounds intelligent!
Spring meetings are this week (Tues-Thurs) in Daytona. The Presidents meet Thursday, also. I'd love to be a fly on the wall! I hope we'll hear some news regarding their discussions/decisions later this week.
Football-wise, we have CU and JU now. Without having any inside knowledge, I feel like it will take upcoming decisions by Lipscomb and Mercer to get A-Sun fb rolling. If these two bite quickly, they could be playing by 2010. Add Davidson and Morehead, and wait to see what ETSU does.
I've asked it numerous times before, but.....will ETSU try the non-scholly route?
Regarding that article above about Mercer (and Georgia already being saturated with fb schools), I don't buy it. There's room for Mercer fb in Ga and I hope they add it.
For Campbell's sake, I'd love to see more potential opponents closer-by to off-set traveling to San Diego, Des Moines, etc.
One more thing to prove Daniel Shirley’s ignorance:
North Carolina has a population of roughly 8 million and there are 9 schools that play DI football (Duke, Wake, NCST, UNC, ECU, App. St, Gardner Webb, Campbell, and Davidson) in North Carolina.
Georgia has a population of roughly 8.2 million and there are currently only 4 DI programs in Georgia. So if GA State makes 5 and Mercer makes 6 that is still 3 fewer football schools with a larger population and a larger talent pool. Georgia consistently ranks 4th in college football talent behind Texas, California, and Florida.
I must say Daniel Shirley is a misinformed fool!
North Carolina has a population of roughly 8 million and there are 9 schools that play DI football (Duke, Wake, NCST, UNC, ECU, App. St, Gardner Webb, Campbell, and Davidson) in North Carolina.
Georgia has a population of roughly 8.2 million and there are currently only 4 DI programs in Georgia.
To further emphasize CWG's point, NC also has D-1 fb at Western, Elon, A&T, W-S State, and NCCU. Plus, there's a bunch of D-IIs (Catawba, Lenoir-Rhyne, Wingate, etc.)
Absolutely, Georgia is a little bigger and is a football state, but with fewer schools. Do it, Mercer, do it!!
Go Bears! Do it! The more people that have it will force the other schools to get something rolling.
nice posts CWG... welcome to the boards! I'm glad to see you're pro football. I hope it's on the horizon.
I e-mailed the following note to Daniel Shirley at the telegraph, his e-mail is dshirley@macon.com if anyone else wants to express their opinion.
Dear Mr. Shirley,
After reading your piece titled “Mercer Needs to Pass on Football” which appeared on Tuesday, April 22, 2008. I felt compelled to inform you of my displeasure and your ignorance. I am accustomed to reading under researched articles and incorrect statements in the Macon Telegraph which has about as much credibility as a tabloid, but when a local institution is attacked I must take umbrage.
First, your opinion on Georgia being saturated with football is simply not true. Maybe before you printed this article you should have done a little research; it took me about five minutes to compile the following information.
North Carolina has a population of roughly 8 million and there are 9 schools that play DI football in North Carolina including: Duke, Wake Forest, UNC, NCST, ECU, Appalachian State, Davidson, Gardner Webb, and Campbell.
Georgia has a population of roughly 8.2 million and there are currently only 4 DI programs in Georgia. So if Georgia State makes 5 and Mercer makes 6 that is still 3 fewer football schools with a larger population and a larger talent pool. Georgia consistently ranks 4th in college football talent behind Texas, California, and Florida.
Second, history is certainly on Mercer’s side, both Georgia and Georgia Tech played their first ever football games against Mercer back in 1892. Wally Butts and Dr. Steadman Vincent Sanford, (the namesake of Sanford Stadium), both graduated from Mercer and the legendary Bernie Moore also coached football at Mercer.
Third, endowments are a factor. Mercer’s endowment is over $200 million and more that double Georgia State’s endowment of $98 million. Georgia Southern’s endowment is just over $34 million while Savannah State’s endowment is just over $2 million. The size of the endowment illustrates the generosity of alumni as well as the fiscal responsibility of the institution. The size of the endowment also illustrates that Mercer would have no trouble establishing a DI football program.
Finally, Mercer’s admission requirements are much higher than those of Georgia Southern or Savannah State. Mercer offers professional graduate degrees in Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, and Engineering. No other football school in the state offers such a vast array of professional degrees. This means that typically Mercer Alumni will earn more money in the long run. While Georgia State, Georgia Southern, and Savannah State may have larger alumni pools Mercer has a more wealthy pool of alumni overall.
Football can and should be successful at Mercer University. Mercer is slightly larger than Wake Forest who won the ACC conference title a few years ago. While I don’t expect Mercer to win any national championships anytime soon that doesn’t mean the program can’t be successful.
As someone who earns his livelihood from the City of Macon you should be ashamed of yourself. According to Georgia Trend Magazine, Mercer is the fourth largest employer in Bibb County. Mercer needs local citizens to help build and not tear down. How many jobs would football add? How many dollars would visitors from out of town spend in our local economy? Please think before you write in the future. Think about the local community, the local institutions, and local jobs. Please think about more than your own misinformed opinion.
Non scholly football is a stupid idea there is no legitamacy by going that route, imo. I think Campbell is making a mistake by going that route. They have a hard on with the whole idea of bring back football after 50 years that they can't see straight. If ETSU is going to bring football back do it right otherewise it is a slap in the face to your former program and players.
What did you expect Campbell to do go Scholarship and play App State etc this year and get run off the field and embarassed. We will be lucky to win a few games this year. They are trying to build a program. Maybe sometime down the road scholarship may be a possibility but not now.
I think they mad the right decison on this one. What other options do you think they had?
I think non-scholarship is the way to go! It has worked for the Ivy League for years!
I e-mailed the following note to Daniel Shirley at the telegraph, his e-mail is dshirley@macon.com if anyone else wants to express their opinion.
Dear Mr. Shirley,
After reading your piece titled “Mercer Needs to Pass on Football” which appeared on Tuesday, April 22, 2008. I felt compelled to inform you of my displeasure and your ignorance. I am accustomed to reading under researched articles and incorrect statements in the Macon Telegraph which has about as much credibility as a tabloid, but when a local institution is attacked I must take umbrage.
First, your opinion on Georgia being saturated with football is simply not true. Maybe before you printed this article you should have done a little research; it took me about five minutes to compile the following information.
North Carolina has a population of roughly 8 million and there are 9 schools that play DI football in North Carolina including: Duke, Wake Forest, UNC, NCST, ECU, Appalachian State, Davidson, Gardner Webb, and Campbell.
Georgia has a population of roughly 8.2 million and there are currently only 4 DI programs in Georgia. So if Georgia State makes 5 and Mercer makes 6 that is still 3 fewer football schools with a larger population and a larger talent pool. Georgia consistently ranks 4th in college football talent behind Texas, California, and Florida.
Second, history is certainly on Mercer’s side, both Georgia and Georgia Tech played their first ever football games against Mercer back in 1892. Wally Butts and Dr. Steadman Vincent Sanford, (the namesake of Sanford Stadium), both graduated from Mercer and the legendary Bernie Moore also coached football at Mercer.
Third, endowments are a factor. Mercer’s endowment is over $200 million and more that double Georgia State’s endowment of $98 million. Georgia Southern’s endowment is just over $34 million while Savannah State’s endowment is just over $2 million. The size of the endowment illustrates the generosity of alumni as well as the fiscal responsibility of the institution. The size of the endowment also illustrates that Mercer would have no trouble establishing a DI football program.
Finally, Mercer’s admission requirements are much higher than those of Georgia Southern or Savannah State. Mercer offers professional graduate degrees in Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, and Engineering. No other football school in the state offers such a vast array of professional degrees. This means that typically Mercer Alumni will earn more money in the long run. While Georgia State, Georgia Southern, and Savannah State may have larger alumni pools Mercer has a more wealthy pool of alumni overall.
Football can and should be successful at Mercer University. Mercer is slightly larger than Wake Forest who won the ACC conference title a few years ago. While I don’t expect Mercer to win any national championships anytime soon that doesn’t mean the program can’t be successful.
As someone who earns his livelihood from the City of Macon you should be ashamed of yourself. According to Georgia Trend Magazine, Mercer is the fourth largest employer in Bibb County. Mercer needs local citizens to help build and not tear down. How many jobs would football add? How many dollars would visitors from out of town spend in our local economy? Please think before you write in the future. Think about the local community, the local institutions, and local jobs. Please think about more than your own misinformed opinion.
Excellent letter, CWG. I probably would've been more diplomatic and not called the guy "ignorant" . . . not that I disagree with your assessment of him. 
Diplomacy aside, you make a very strong case in favor of Mercer football becoming a reality. I'm interested to see what Mr. Shirley's response will be (assuming that he does respond).
I noticed you didn't mention the option of going non-scholarship for the first few years of the football program's existence. You may want to mention that in any future correspondence with Mr. Shirley and see what he thinks.
Go Bears football!
Yes, I go over the top from time to time. There are two things that really upset me: (1) when someone is negative about something that i care about and (2) when someone talks about something that they don't know anything about. Here, Mr. Shirley did both.
He has not responded yet, which also indicates that he is a coward.
I also forwarded the e-mail to all of the editors/publishers at the Telegraph. The A-Sun is based in Macon and I don't feel like the local media give Mercer and the A-Sun conference enough attention. If the media would help out a little there may be more local interest in Mercer and the conference.
I wonder if Samford would come back if the A-Sun started supporting football? I also wonder if DIII schools that host non-scholarship football like Lagrange College and Huntington College would be interested; it is my understanding that DII and DIII schools can play up in one sport, but DI schools cannot play down. North Dakota does something similar in Ice Hockey; North Dakota is DII, but they play a DI hockey schedule.
Kennesaw State Hockey (
http://www.ksuicehockey.com, site seems down) is playing a D-II schedule some how... it's not under Athletics though. They won the ACHA Championships and often play UGA and Tennessee as their top rivals.
Just a reminder to the people who keep bashing non-scholarship football ... the Atlantic Sun would not have to be non-scholarship forever ... but there is nothing wrong with starting out that way. The Northeast Conference originally sponsored football at the non-scholarship level several years ago, slowly began raising scholarship numbers as the membership could afford it, and will be gaining an autobid to the FCS playoffs in 2010. Doing it this way allows a league to grow together at a sensible financial pace over the long haul. If a similar plan works best for the teams in the Atlantic Sun then there is absolutely no good reason not to pursue such an option.
I just read on Wikipedia that Mercer was Conference champs of the Dixie Conference in 1932. It looks like the conference folded in 1942, the same time Mercer suspended its football program.
There used to be a page on Wikipedia that listed Mercer's all time football record, but I have been unable to locate the page recently. I know Mercer never beat Georgia, but I think they had victories against Florida, Georgia Tech, and Auburn.
I enjoy reading about the football history of both Mercer and Georgia. Both schools have a very rich football history.
You can check out
College Football Data Warehouse to research the past histories of
East Tennessee State and
Mercer as well as the ongoing history of
Jacksonville. No data exists yet for
Campbell and
Kennesaw State although it is great that both schools are moving full speed ahead with their plans to start programs. You can also look up the ongoing histories of prospective football-only possibilities
Davidson and
Morehead State if so inclined.
Has anyone heard anything more about the Presidents' Meeting and football?
Apparently, nothing to report.
Perhaps schools will make their own football announcements before the league announces anything. If a Mercer or a Lipscomb announces right now, you're probably talking two years before they play their first game, possibly in the PFL at first. We'll just have to wait and see....
Non scholly football is a stupid idea there is no legitamacy by going that route, imo. I think Campbell is making a mistake by going that route. They have a hard on with the whole idea of bring back football after 50 years that they can't see straight. If ETSU is going to bring football back do it right otherewise it is a slap in the face to your former program and players.
What did you expect Campbell to do go Scholarship and play App State etc this year and get run off the field and embarassed. We will be lucky to win a few games this year. They are trying to build a program. Maybe sometime down the road scholarship may be a possibility but not now.
I think they mad the right decison on this one. What other options do you think they had?
Take more time and do it right. My example would be Old Dominion University and their approach to the whole matter of football which, imo, they are going about it the right way. CU will get there heads handed to them this season and for the next few as well. Tailgating with sweet tea and Bojangles chicken will get mighty old fast.
Game-Time Decision
Student reluctance leads to an ETSU punt on the issue of a revived football program
By Drew Ruble
Five years ago, tiny Southeastern Louisiana University in Hammond, La., revived a scholarship football program that had lain dormant for 18 seasons. The impact? According to a study performed by Southeastern's Business Research Center, profound. Based on direct revenues from the program, auxiliary expenditures by home game attendees and estimates of "ripple" effects based on generally accepted economic multipliers, the impact was approximately $8.3 million in the first year.
Reviving football has been a persistent topic of conversation at East Tennessee State University and its home base of Johnson City ever since President Paul Stanton shut the program down in 2003, citing financial difficulties. Most Washington County residents, including Stanton, would like to see football return to ETSU. But a plethora of financial considerations teamed with student body opposition has so far kept that from happening. A careful study of the facts and figures surrounding the debate has made most local business folks sympathetic to the reasons for not having it. That said, sentiment still exists that not having football is a missed economic opportunity for the entire local community.
A Red Zone Offense
When Stanton came to ETSU in 1997, he says the university was diverting $1 million from academic pursuits to maintain the school's athletics program. In 1999, he put together a task force of 30 community/university representatives to look at all athletic programs and advise him on what to do. They came back with the message that football was the problem, and concluded that within the next five years ETSU would need to raise an additional $800,000 to 900,000 from donations to remain solvent.
"What we generated over the next few years averaged $27,000 in donations, which is a huge difference," says Stanton. "After a lot of consternation and anxiety, I announced the end of the football program at our foundation meeting in May of 2003."
In 2006, a group called the Buc Football & Friends Foundation (BF&FF), which had formed in the aftermath of Stanton's decision, formally lobbied Stanton to consider reviving the program. Stanton agreed and formed another task force—one that included student government representation—and set a study in motion. The group found that bringing the program back was now a $1.8 million per year proposition. On top of that, in order to comply fully with Title 9 (which the program had not been fully funding previously), an additional $2.5 million would be needed to add at least three women's programs, increasing the total cost to $4.3 million.
Simultaneously, student surveys strongly indicated that if a student referendum were held asking for support of an increase in athletic fees to fund revival of the football program, it would pass. (Approval of the Tennessee Board of Regents, ETSU's governing body, would also be required.) The proposed fee increase would have generated a little over $2.5 million.
With those new facts in hand, the university sent out nearly 70,000 letters of solicitation to alumni and friends indicating that nearly $1 million of the total $4.3 million re-start cost would have to come from donors per year. Between advertising support, sponsorships, ticket and merchandise sales, the university figured it could generate the additional $800,000 needed to meet the $4.3 million program cost. But the student vote—not required but which Stanton told students he would hold and support—went the opposite direction.
"Everybody, including myself, believed that the referendum the student government wanted would be approved," Stanton says. "When it came to the students from a survey saying they would pay it to students knowing they would have to pay for it, they reneged on it."
Contested Call
BF&FF president Jerry Robertson blames ETSU's faculty for the reversal of fortune. "During that period of time between the survey and the vote, the faculty worked against it, took class time to talk about how we were going to lose our pencils and tablets and wouldn't have any light bulbs if you vote for this," Robertson relates. "Football was the bogeyman." Stanton responds that a departmental survey showed 80% of the faculty didn't want football to return but couldn't confirm that faculty lobbied in classrooms. "I heard some rumors that they had," Stanton says. "I have to believe some of that was out there. And it would not be totally unexpected."
Robertson questions why Stanton ever felt the need to hold or adhere to the student body vote on the subject when it is his prerogative to increase fees as he sees fit. Stanton replies, "I kind of look at it as a tax. If the students don't want a tax, I'm not going to cram it down their throats." Additionally, Stanton says the sentiment of the Board of Regents, unlike other governing bodies in other states, has been not to put athletics on the backs of students who have seen tuition costs rise on average around 8% each of the last 10 years. "I was told by more than one regent that unless the students supported it in their referendum, they would not support it at the board level," Stanton says.
Stanton now believes it will take another four years until the current crop of ETSU students graduate before the issue of reviving the football program will again be a possibility. Robertson says the general feeling of the people in the Washington County area is that "probably nothing is going to be done until the administration changes." (If that's the case, then football fans can take heart—Stanton recently announced he would retire in March 2009.)
Going for Broke?
So is Washington County missing out on the fruits of economic impact by having a football program at ETSU? Robertson points to examples of other schools like Appalachian State University in Boone, N.C., which revived its program, recently toppled Division I powerhouse the University of Michigan and has grossed millions of dollars on increased student applications, alumni money, even T-shirt sales. Stanton's view of the potential local economic impact is far less grand. "If you had it and if you were winning like Appalachian State is doing—and I take my hat off to them—it is generating dollars for them," Stanton says. "But in the days when Appalachian State had not come up to real competitive advantage, they weren't doing well, either."
John J. Siegfried, professor of economics at Vanderbilt University in Nashville where he teaches antitrust economics and the economics of sports, concurs. "Without football, more local residents will play golf, go to movies, etc., on Saturday afternoons in the Fall, and expenditures on those activities will offset any loss of football revenues," Siegfried says. "The short answer to almost all economic impact questions is that the impacts are not nearly as large as is usually argued because there are decent substitutes for most activities." So for now, at least, football fans in Washington County will just have to find something else to do.
This article appeared in the June 2008 issue of Business Tennessee Magazine.
I e-mailed the following note to Daniel Shirley at the telegraph, his e-mail is dshirley@macon.com if anyone else wants to express their opinion.
Dear Mr. Shirley,
After reading your piece titled “Mercer Needs to Pass on Football” which appeared on Tuesday, April 22, 2008. I felt compelled to inform you of my displeasure and your ignorance. I am accustomed to reading under researched articles and incorrect statements in the Macon Telegraph which has about as much credibility as a tabloid, but when a local institution is attacked I must take umbrage.
First, your opinion on Georgia being saturated with football is simply not true. Maybe before you printed this article you should have done a little research; it took me about five minutes to compile the following information.
North Carolina has a population of roughly 8 million and there are 9 schools that play DI football in North Carolina including: Duke, Wake Forest, UNC, NCST, ECU, Appalachian State, Davidson, Gardner Webb, and Campbell.
Georgia has a population of roughly 8.2 million and there are currently only 4 DI programs in Georgia. So if Georgia State makes 5 and Mercer makes 6 that is still 3 fewer football schools with a larger population and a larger talent pool. Georgia consistently ranks 4th in college football talent behind Texas, California, and Florida.
Second, history is certainly on Mercer’s side, both Georgia and Georgia Tech played their first ever football games against Mercer back in 1892. Wally Butts and Dr. Steadman Vincent Sanford, (the namesake of Sanford Stadium), both graduated from Mercer and the legendary Bernie Moore also coached football at Mercer.
Third, endowments are a factor. Mercer’s endowment is over $200 million and more that double Georgia State’s endowment of $98 million. Georgia Southern’s endowment is just over $34 million while Savannah State’s endowment is just over $2 million. The size of the endowment illustrates the generosity of alumni as well as the fiscal responsibility of the institution. The size of the endowment also illustrates that Mercer would have no trouble establishing a DI football program.
Finally, Mercer’s admission requirements are much higher than those of Georgia Southern or Savannah State. Mercer offers professional graduate degrees in Law, Medicine, Pharmacy, and Engineering. No other football school in the state offers such a vast array of professional degrees. This means that typically Mercer Alumni will earn more money in the long run. While Georgia State, Georgia Southern, and Savannah State may have larger alumni pools Mercer has a more wealthy pool of alumni overall.
Football can and should be successful at Mercer University. Mercer is slightly larger than Wake Forest who won the ACC conference title a few years ago. While I don’t expect Mercer to win any national championships anytime soon that doesn’t mean the program can’t be successful.
As someone who earns his livelihood from the City of Macon you should be ashamed of yourself. According to Georgia Trend Magazine, Mercer is the fourth largest employer in Bibb County. Mercer needs local citizens to help build and not tear down. How many jobs would football add? How many dollars would visitors from out of town spend in our local economy? Please think before you write in the future. Think about the local community, the local institutions, and local jobs. Please think about more than your own misinformed opinion.
Excellent letter, CWG. I probably would've been more diplomatic and not called the guy "ignorant" . . . not that I disagree with your assessment of him. Diplomacy aside, you make a very strong case in favor of Mercer football becoming a reality. I'm interested to see what Mr. Shirley's response will be (assuming that he does respond).
I noticed you didn't mention the option of going non-scholarship for the first few years of the football program's existence. You may want to mention that in any future correspondence with Mr. Shirley and see what he thinks.
Go Bears football!
Shirley has responded and we have gone back and forth several times. Now he says that he never said the state of Georgia was saturated with football. He also states that he is for Mercer having football, but they need to do it the right way, the way Georgia State is doing it. I would post all of the replies, but it would take up a lot of room.
Hey guys help me out here; e-mail Mercer’s AD (Bob Pope) and tell him Mercer should reinstate football:
pope_ba@mercer.edu
I think non-scholarship football is a good starting point, but the conference shouldn’t stop there. The Atlantic Sun needs to come up with a strategic plan to take football from non-scholarship to competing in Division I-AA.
However, my view of this happening is very pessimistic at this time. I have communicated with Ted Gumbart, (Atlantic Sun Conference Commissioner), but have received no real answer; he seems very unmotivated and somewhat satisfied with the status quo.
Bob Pope (Athletic Director) at Mercer is also very satisfied with the status quo and wants to do things as cheaply as possible. I don’t believe Gumbart and Pope realize what football can do for a University.
I also think the Atlantic Sun could do a better job marketing its teams in other sports as well.
My opinion of the management of Athletics at both the Altantic Sun Conference and Mercer University is very negative at this time. I have been writing letters all summer. I would invite you to do the same; send Gumbart and Athletic Directors at Atlantic Sun schools e-mails and letters telling them why and how football could work for the Atlantic Sun.
I know this is a bit fanatical, but I believe if enough people e-mail, send letters, etc… The conference and the member schools will have to take notice. I have posted names, e-mails, and addresses for Gumbart and several Athletic Directors of member schools below.
Ted Gumbart:
tgumbart@atlanticsun.org
Atlantic Sun Conference
3370 Vineville Ave., Suite 108-B
Macon, GA 31204
478/474-3394
fax 478/474-4272
Bob Pope:
pope_ba@mercer.edu
Mercer University Athletics
1400 Coleman Avenue
Macon, GA 31207-0001
Macon, Ga. 31207-0001
Phone: (478) 301-2994
Jeff Altier
jaltier@stetson.edu
Director of Athletics
Stetson University
Athletics Department | Unit 8359
421 North Woodland Boulevard
DeLand, Florida 32723
Phone Number : 386.822.8100
Mike Strickland
stricklandm@mail.belmont.edu
Director of Athletics
Belmont University
1900 Belmont Boulevard
Nashville, TN 37212-3757
Phone: 615-460-6420
Fax: 615-460-5584
Dr. Steve Potts
steve.potts@lipscomb.edu
Director of Athletics
Main Office: (615) 966-5850 • FAX: (615) 966-1806
Mailing Address:
Lipscomb Athletics
One University Park Drive
Nashville, TN 37204
Dr. Dave Waples
dwaples@kennesaw.edu
Athletic Director
1000 Chastain Rd.
Building 2 Kennesaw, GA 30144
CWG, I sent an e-mail to the A-Sun commish and voiced my support for an A-Sun football league. I don't think my words will carry as much weight as those of fans of A-Sun schools, though. Hopefully, Mr. Gumbart will give the idea of an A-Sun football league some serious thought and will take action to make it a reality.
Jeff Altier
jaltier@stetson.edu
Director of Athletics
Stetson University
Athletics Department | Unit 8359
421 North Woodland Boulevard
DeLand, Florida 32723
Phone Number : 386.822.8100
Trying to convince the aging leadership at Stetson to field a football team would be a huge, huge task. They give little support to the men's basketball program as it stands now. It can't hurt to contact them, but I wouldn't expect a lot of support for bringing football back to Stetson.
Jeff Altier
jaltier@stetson.edu
Director of Athletics
Stetson University
Athletics Department | Unit 8359
421 North Woodland Boulevard
DeLand, Florida 32723
Phone Number : 386.822.8100
Trying to convince the aging leadership at Stetson to field a football team would be a huge, huge task. They give little support to the men's basketball program as it stands now. It can't hurt to contact them, but I wouldn't expect a lot of support for bringing football back to Stetson.
Frankly, I'm surprised Stetson isn't D2. They belong in the Sunshine State Conference with Rollins, Tampa, St. Leo, etc. They could still keep their baseball and softball D1.
Also, best of luck to the ASUN getting FB off the ground in the near future 
Frankly, I'm surprised Stetson isn't D2. They belong in the Sunshine State Conference with Rollins, Tampa, St. Leo, etc. They could still keep their baseball and softball D1.
Also, best of luck to the ASUN getting FB off the ground in the near future
Seeing Stetson's baseball program take a dive lately just doesn't seem right. I hope Pete Dunn will get them back on their feet quickly.
BullsFanatic - it doesn't work like that. All sports have to be at the same level unless you're talking about hockey.
You're certainly not the first person I've heard suggest Stetson go D2...but I hope you'll be the last, if you feel me.
Actually the NCAA used to have a clause that allowed teams to move one sport up a level as long as it was not football or basketball. That rule has been done away with now and only schools that were grandfathered in can play up a level.
Schools like Johns Hopkins and Hobart are still allowed to play up a level in lacrosse; Hartwick in soccer; and Lake Superior State, St. Cloud State, and their other buddies in hockey. But no new teams will be allowed to cross divisions like that.
The other exception is if there is only one division for a sport. Bowling and fencing are examples of this since there are not enough programs to have separate divisions. Technically, men's volleyball is also one division, but the sport is growing.
I have yet to see any follow-up on the tricities.com article. The meeting has happened, and there have not been any public statements about sponsoring football. I doubt they'll have much to say unless/until schools such as Mercer, Lipscomb, and Stetson commit to the sport. Mercer should decide this year...I have no idea about others.
I expect the A-Sun to get involved with football, one way or another.
Actually the NCAA used to have a clause that allowed teams to move one sport up a level as long as it was not football or basketball. That rule has been done away with now and only schools that were grandfathered in can play up a level.
Schools like Johns Hopkins and Hobart are still allowed to play up a level in lacrosse; Hartwick in soccer; and Lake Superior State, St. Cloud State, and their other buddies in hockey. But no new teams will be allowed to cross divisions like that.
The other exception is if there is only one division for a sport. Bowling and fencing are examples of this since there are not enough programs to have separate divisions. Technically, men's volleyball is also one division, but the sport is growing.
The NCAA still allows DII and DIII schools to move up one men's and one women's sport up to DI, with the exceptions of basketball (M/W) and football. The DI Governors have placed a moratorium on any moveups (single sport or school) until 2011. Also, DIII will allow single sport move-ups to DI, but no longer allows those DIII schools to offer scholarships. Existing DI programs from DIII schools (like Hopkins in lacrosse, or Colorado College in men's hockey) were given a grandfather clause allowing them to continue scholarships.
Kennesaw State Hockey (
http://www.ksuicehockey.com, site seems down) is playing a D-II schedule some how... it's not under Athletics though. They won the ACHA Championships and often play UGA and Tennessee as their top rivals.
Kennesaw State plays DII club hockey. The only southern school that sponsors DI NCAA varsity hockey is Alabama-Huntsville, which is actually a DII school.
A couple of years ago to meet DI sports offering requirements, Kennesaw State was seriously investigating adding hockey and playing their games in the Phillips Arena in downtown Atlanta. It would have been too high risk, and now they seem to be going the football route.
I wonder if Samford would come back if the A-Sun started supporting football? I also wonder if DIII schools that host non-scholarship football like Lagrange College and Huntington College would be interested; it is my understanding that DII and DIII schools can play up in one sport, but DI schools cannot play down. North Dakota does something similar in Ice Hockey; North Dakota is DII, but they play a DI hockey schedule.
As mentioned before, the NCAA doesn't allow single sport move-ups in football or basketball. BTW, North Dakota is now in the process of moving all its sports to DI, one year behind Florida Gulf Coast.
I'm wondering if any Division 1 universities in Florida might ever decide to try fielding varsity-level lacrosse teams. We have high schools in the Central Florida area that have a boys' and/or a girls' team. My sister played lacrosse in high school down here. If some of those players were going to continue playing past high school, you'd think a few would enjoy the chance to stay in their home state.
A dose of reality to the discussion...
Which of the Atlantic Sun's members can afford the travel costs for 100-120 football players and associated coaches and staffers in a conference that is so spread out? I don't see any way that ETSU could play football in their current conference (scholarship or nonscholarship) as travel costs would be prohibitive.
Football in the Atlantic Sun makes no sense at all.
Just my opinion, I realize that others' opinions differ.
I'm wondering if any Division 1 universities in Florida might ever decide to try fielding varsity-level lacrosse teams. We have high schools in the Central Florida area that have a boys' and/or a girls' team. My sister played lacrosse in high school down here. If some of those players were going to continue playing past high school, you'd think a few would enjoy the chance to stay in their home state.
Jacksonville recently announced the addition of both men's and women's DI varsity lacrosse teams.
Florida will be fielding a women's team and play in the same conference as Vanderbilt, S Carolina, Northwester, Hopkins, and a few other majors.
A dose of reality to the discussion...
Which of the Atlantic Sun's members can afford the travel costs for 100-120 football players and associated coaches and staffers in a conference that is so spread out? I don't see any way that ETSU could play football in their current conference (scholarship or nonscholarship) as travel costs would be prohibitive.
Football in the Atlantic Sun makes no sense at all.
Just my opinion, I realize that others' opinions differ.
Most of the private schools in the A-Sun have plenty of money. I'm not sure why many people think these schools cannot afford to travel. Mercer has the largest endowment in the A-Sun and the third largest endowment in the state of GA. I don't think travel cost would matter that much. Just my opinion...
If Campbell can do it, why not Mercer? Why not other A-Sun schools?
If Campbell can do it, why not Mercer? Why not other A-Sun schools?
Well Said!