i maintain that the defense problem is NOT the front 4, but the linebackers.
we got good push all season, there just wasnt anyone there to clean up behind them. losing greg jackson was a KILLER, that was the only guy we had who could come off the edge with authority. i'll give the dbs credit for a bit of improvement, just because they actually turned and looked for the ball on occasion. the past 3 seasons, our db's all looked like they had neck fusions.
JLD, hubba bubba and CB were a collective disaster. defensive recruiting was nil. practice was just look busy. if you wanna hang TW for anything, do it because he let ithose 3 go on as long as he did. and you dont fix that with out time and recruiting, something the new defensive staff is just getting a turn a bat with.
our practice fields are unusable for 3 days after it rains. that is something that HAS to be addressed NOW. anyone who witnessed the MATA cluster before the last scrimmage at the LB before leaving for new orleans knows that having to pile up and going to the stadium for practice because the practice fields are a swamp is a major disruption.
egrizzard Wrote:Hold on--TOGC asked to discuss football in an intelligent manner and take a critical look at the state of the program, and ya'll are clowning him? I asked him, and others time and time again to talk about the footall season when it was over.
You know one the difference between Memphs and some big time programs? They dicuss their programs year round--not onl that-we want it moved off the main board? calm down. The man asked for an intelligent conversation--- no one is forcing you to enter the talk.
Yes, I will defend TW. Your strength of schedule arguement doesn't hold water. With the exception of the non conf schedule--we have no control over how strong the other teams are. The sos is subjective for one, and in addition, more a reflection the teams in the conf are getting worse.
The defense has gotten worse,and I can in no way defend that. TW has stated that the defense we had was not good enough to win championships, and that he had to start over. I am not blaming JLD,but if you follow the program closely, you know that JLD an "bubba" were awful, awful recruiters. We are paying the price for that now. I will say the time for that excuse has passed, and I don't wanna hear it anymore and I won't go there again. Is Kravitz the answer? Dunno. If I am in charge, he has got next year to show us. I will also say I see loads of potential on this defense, and a few key players can turn the whole thing around. It all starts with the front 4 on defense--if we can start getting some heat from them, it will make the entire defense look better. Even Champ Bailey can't cover the wr forever.
I also say this is chess, not checkers,and we will be okay.
Answer another question for me. Before the first NO bowl, did you ever imagine we would be this upset over a winning season and a bowl game?I say that is proof that TW has the program ina better place than it was.
Whoever called the football program crumbling---come on. That is a joke, right?
The strength of schedule argument does hold water. We put MTSU on the schedule to fill the fourth OOC game. We could've gone after a ranked BCS bowl team, but we went after a second Sun Belt team. Almost unanimously everyone was agreeing at the beginning of the season that we had one of the worst schedules ever.
The defense has not been spectacular in any of Tommy's teams. His best team gave up 19.2 ppg, but five out of seven of them have given up 25 points or more. With three defensive coordinators in seven years, it appears Tommy doesn't know what he wants to do with the defense.
As for the "4 bowls in 5 years", it's due more to the fact that we now have 12 games to win 6, we have a conference affiliation with 6 guaranteed bowls, and we have 64 available bowl slots for the 120 Division 1-A teams. It's ridiculously easy to make a bowl today compared to how difficult it was in the past, when we had an 11-game schedule, we played as an independent, and we had 48 available bowl slots.
there werent 48 slots available to us though. they were all contracted to schools in conferences. thats how the whole liberty bowl alliance started.
we could have gone 10-1 in the late 80s-90s and not made a bowl. easily.
I wish it was a joke, but I see it crumbling when you get hammered by a team called FAU, lose 4 straight to sunbelt teams. I am guessing that you went to at least the home games this year? You cannot tell me that the defense just made you sick to your stomach ?? Don't get me wrong, your my friend because you share a love like me for Tiger Athletics, but it seems like you have tunnel vision and cannot see all that is wrong ? Are you not concerned with the lack of quarterback and running back for next year ?? Hudgins looked just awful in the bowl game, pitts and barnes are not gamebreakers they are backups. We lack depth, we lack team speed, our special teams have to rank at the very bottom. Are you not concerned with the fact that the defense will look the same next year ? I mean its great when you return starters but not our starters... please give a little here, your being fooled by wins over terrible competition and then a bowl game for those cheap wins.
tigerjeb Wrote:there werent 48 slots available to us though. they were all contracted to schools in conferences. thats how the whole liberty bowl alliance started.
we could have gone 10-1 in the late 80s-90s and not made a bowl. easily.
Which further illustrates how much easier it is to get a bowl bid today and how difficult (if not impossible) it was to get it back then.
ddramone Wrote:I am one of those who think that TW is a solid game day coach - we don't turn the ball over too much, we seem to have pretty solid effort for virtually all of our games, we have experienced very little in the way of off-the-field issues.
That said, it seems fairly clear to me that our talent level has been declining versus other C-USA teams - especially UCF and ECU. And, our talent level has been declining versus our PAST (especially on the defensive side of the ball).
To this day, I believe the JLD hiring was an outright disaster. His failure to recruit really came to the fore this year and probably next year as well. Fichtner was a very good recruiter on the offensive side of the ball and whoever was responsible for defensive recruiting (which by default should be TW) has not kept up, to put it mildly.
The 'lack of commitment' argument simply doesn't hold water when TW is 0-4 versus the Sunbelt in the last two years and the fact that we got crushed so convincingly against ECU and UCF. We have a very sophisticated football market here in Memphis and they know when the product ain't so hot...and we have seen a decline in ticket sales as a result.
If next year we go 7-6 and end up in Mobile...I will go to keep my bowl streak intact. However, another 7-6 record will most likely result in very poor attendance again. TW ain't going anywhere this off-season, but he should be, in my opinion, be able to at least win the DIVISION title in either of the next two years or else I think it may be time to look in a new direction. In other words, if TW has not won the division title in 9 years (he's been here 7 years already), then I think it's time to look elsewhere.
Now that has been the most honest answer I have seen on the subject, for that, I thank you!
the other Greg Childers Wrote:tigerjeb Wrote:there werent 48 slots available to us though. they were all contracted to schools in conferences. thats how the whole liberty bowl alliance started.
we could have gone 10-1 in the late 80s-90s and not made a bowl. easily.
Which further illustrates how much easier it is to get a bowl bid today and how difficult (if not impossible) it was to get it back then.
so you are saying that you would be happier to have a great team and get frozen out of a bowl than to have a so-so team and go to a bowl?
tigerjeb Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:tigerjeb Wrote:there werent 48 slots available to us though. they were all contracted to schools in conferences. thats how the whole liberty bowl alliance started.
we could have gone 10-1 in the late 80s-90s and not made a bowl. easily.
Which further illustrates how much easier it is to get a bowl bid today and how difficult (if not impossible) it was to get it back then.
so you are saying that you would be happier to have a great team and get frozen out of a bowl than to have a so-so team and go to a bowl?
I don't believe in rewarding mediocrity. It only breeds more mediocrity.
Besides, the argument is irrelevant. Both great teams and mediocre ones make bowls these days. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather we have a great team that makes a bowl.
With our conference schedule if we didn't go 6-2 it would have been horrible. We played what has been called by outsiders the most easy schedule in D-1a football. On the topic of ooc games I would much rather get killed by ranked teams rather than lose to two sun-belt teams. Tommy West very frankly lacks major recruiting skills and can't direct a team on the field. He in uncharismatic. It doesn't make any sense to me for Tommy West who makes $950,000 to lose to FAU and Skip Holtz who makes $425,000 to win against a nationally ranked team- Boise State. I think Tommy West has some value but I don't understand the Athletic department spending $950,000 for a Jimmy Sexton special that can't seem to win a conference championship with the best team the university has ever had. If Memphis fans honestly desire mediocrity at the low end of Division 1 football than I guess Tommy West is the way to go. Memphis fans need to figure out what they want- A competitive football team or Tommy West. I think the two are mutually exclusive
Without going all the way back into ancient history like Greg did going all the way back to 1917 and use a coach who only coached two seasons as part of his percentage review, I'm going to go back to 1975 and start with Richard Williamson. In fairness, the previous coach, Fred Pancoast is the only coach on record to leave the Tigers to take another head coaching position with a winning record.
-----Coach-------------Record--------seasons-------winning seasons
Richard Williamson-------31-35-0---------6---------------3
Rex Dockery------------- 8-24-1---------3---------------0
Rey Dempsey------------ 7-12-3---------2---------------0
Charlie Bailey------------12-20-1---------3---------------1
Chuck Stobart-----------29-36-1---------6---------------3
Rip Scherer--------------22-44-0---------6---------------0
Tommy West------------41-44-0---------7---------------4
So, let me get this straight. The coach with the most winning seasons in the last 30 years, who has taken us to 4 bowl games in the last 5 years is taking the program down and should be fired? I'm not looking at only one or two seasons but the last seven years. I'm sorry but calling for Tommy West to be fired with a record like this does not show intelligent thinking. People seem to forget that we don't exactly have the most history in football. We need to build a stable program and to do that you have to have stability at the coaching position.
For comparison, I'm sure most of you have heard of Frank Beamer at a school called Virginia Tech. After his first seven seasons his record was 33-43-2, with one bowl appearance in the Independence Bowl. They stuck with him and look where they are now.
Can Tommy West do this here? I don't know and neither does anyone else and anyone who says they do has probably been calling the Psychic Hotline and believing what they hear.
egrizzard Wrote:Hold on--TOGC asked to discuss football in an intelligent manner and take a critical look at the state of the program, and ya'll are clowning him? I asked him, and others time and time again to talk about the footall season when it was over.
You know one the difference between Memphs and some big time programs? They dicuss their programs year round--not onl that-we want it moved off the main board? calm down. The man asked for an intelligent conversation--- no one is forcing you to enter the talk.
Yes, I will defend TW. Your strength of schedule arguement doesn't hold water. With the exception of the non conf schedule--we have no control over how strong the other teams are. The sos is subjective for one, and in addition, more a reflection the teams in the conf are getting worse.
The defense has gotten worse,and I can in no way defend that. TW has stated that the defense we had was not good enough to win championships, and that he had to start over. I am not blaming JLD,but if you follow the program closely, you know that JLD an "bubba" were awful, awful recruiters. We are paying the price for that now. I will say the time for that excuse has passed, and I don't wanna hear it anymore and I won't go there again. Is Kravitz the answer? Dunno. If I am in charge, he has got next year to show us. I will also say I see loads of potential on this defense, and a few key players can turn the whole thing around. It all starts with the front 4 on defense--if we can start getting some heat from them, it will make the entire defense look better. Even Champ Bailey can't cover the wr forever.
I also say this is chess, not checkers,and we will be okay.
Answer another question for me. Before the first NO bowl, did you ever imagine we would be this upset over a winning season and a bowl game?I say that is proof that TW has the program ina better place than it was.
Whoever called the football program crumbling---come on. That is a joke, right?
Alright, when a poster I respect asks I'll try to give my answer one more time.
TW may or may not be the guy to lead us to the promised land. But calling for his firing at this point is, at the least counter-productive.
The defense stinks. The special teams are abysmal. The offensive plan is solid. TW has acknowledged all three, publicly. So the head coach is on record as knowing the faults.
Our Grand Strategic Directive is to get into a BCS conference. I do not think our current leadership has this vision, but I do think our head coach does. Our Strategy should be to build an OCS, improve facilities and make us competitive with others fighting for the same thing, such as UCF. I do not think our leadership has this vision either, but our head coach does. I think our Operational objectives should be to win the conference and get invited to a BCS Bowl. I think our current leadership does have this vision and our head coach shares it. I think our Tactics should be to win every single game to achieve our Operational Objectives. I think our current leadership shares this viewpoint, leaving us with the only BUT to the equation: but is our head coach the guy to achieve this tactical objective? Based on his record so far I think it's arguable, but in my opinion the answer is yes.
To do so he must improve on the areas he has said must be improved. The University must give him the ammunition to do the job, for example, an extension, while at the same time protecting itself with a reasonable buyout clause.
To me the significance here is that the head coach is only responsible for two of the four major areas of achievement, the operational and tactical objectives. Even if he does that, wins every game and goes to a BCS game, in the long run will that make our program better without a plan for using that to achieve our long term goal of joining a BCS conference? Only if the leadership plans for such a day and, so far, I have seen no such plans. But I sure hope I'm wrong.
MemphisMike, if you're going to use the "he's better than what we've had in the past" argument, then you should be honest and compare him to all the other coaches in Tiger history and not just the ones after Spook Murphy.
If you want to compare short term success, the team has gone downhill since 2003. The winning percentage, the Sagarin rankings, the defensive production, the attendance at home games, etc. have declined since then. Instead of using the DeAngelo/Danny years as a springboard, the program has regressed.
As for the bowl situation, we've already addressed how the bowl system is no longer a valid criteria for success. When 64 out of 120 teams make a bowl (assuming they've won 6 out of 12 games), it cheapens the bowl experience.
When USM fires Jeff Bower for not winning enough, the arms race has escalated. With Houston Nutt replacing Coach O and the recent success of Croom down in Starkville, the Memphis job has just gotten a lot tougher. We need someone who can raise us above the rest, and I'm not convinced that Tommy is that man. He hasn't even risen to a division title in seven years, much less a conference title. We're 2-6 OOC over the last two years, including 0-6 against Division 1A teams.
Seven years is much longer than most coaches get these days. "Wait till next year" is getting much harder to tolerate each time I hear it.
RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
+1
One thing I disagree with TW on is this. He seems to put the brunt of the blame on the DBs. True they may be bad, but IMO the biggest problem is the DLine. We could have deion and mike haynes in their prime and still struggle with that line and linebackers we started this past year.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:... Given the choice between the two, I'd rather we have a great team that makes a bowl.
Since we're going to continue to beat the same horse.....
Everyone would like to have a great team that makes a bowl. No one has said they didn't. There are just differences of opinion as to how to get there. Tommy's shown the ability to provide winning seasons and bowl games like no other coach we've had in the last 50 years. No one is content with our defense, no one. No one is content with losing to SB teams, no one.
When we hired Tommy, our goals were getting to bowl games and having winning records. He's done that.
Now that we've experienced winning and bowls, our expectations are being adjusted. If we've raised the bar, give him a chance to meet those expectations.....but don't let him go while he's doing exactly what he was hired to do ----- get us in bowls and have winning seasons.
Tommy has a 48.2% overall winning percentage. That's ninth in Tiger history, so it's not "better than we had before." We should set our sights higher than 1 game over .500.
He has been coach for seven years and his best finish in conference is third in the division. Don't try to say second in the division. We lost to both UCF and ECU, so we'd be third in a tiebreaker with ECU.
His bowl record is 2-2. The two wins were against Sun Belt champ North Texas and MAC champion Akron. The two losses were blowouts to MAC runner up Bowling Green and Sun Belt champ FAU (who was celebrating their third year as a Division 1A team). None of those four teams could be confused with "great" teams.
Tommy's a "good ole boy." He's personable. Lots of people like him. I get that.
The program has slid since 2003, and next year appears to be another rebuilding year. Hankins will be gone, and QB will be a HUGE question mark. Doss will be gone, and RB will be another HUGE question mark. The defense returns a lot of players, but they were one of the worst squads in recent memory.
Why do we need to go back any further Greg, don't you think 30 years is enough? What exactly does it prove to go back to 1917? Absolutely nothing because the game was different and the number of schools playing were different so your comment on that is without merit. Crap, tell me what schools that "Bic" beat in his 2 years as coach.
And I see how you completely ignored the comparison to Frank Beamer at VA Tech. The situations are very similar whether you admit it or not. We disagree on the direction of the team. I don't think it's as dire as you want to play it out but that's fine. You go right ahead and keep calling for Coach West to be fired. You're entitled to that opinion. I think your wrong and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it and in doing so it does not mean that I want to "settle for mediocrity" as you want to claim about everyone who doesn't agree with your point. There has to be some underlying cause for all your animosity toward Coach West though. You can't be filled with this much disdain and almost hatred just for losing some football games but that's between you and your conscience.
One question and I think it's a legitimate one, have you let your feelings be known to the Pres and AD at the University? If so, then good for you for standing up for your beliefs. If not, why not? Are you just more comfortable sounding off here on a message board where it will accomplish nothing?
Another thing I'd like to know is if the Tigers under Coach West were to go say 9-3 next season or even 8-4 are you still going to be calling for him to be fired?
WE WERE 6-2 IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR. WE WERE TIED FOR SECOND. TW IS THE REASON USM FIRED BOWER. HAD ANYONE BEATEN UCF WE WOULD HAVE TIED FOR FIRST.
PARITY
MemphisMike Wrote:Why do we need to go back any further Greg, don't you think 30 years is enough? What exactly does it prove to go back to 1917? Absolutely nothing because the game was different and the number of schools playing were different so your comment on that is without merit. Crap, tell me what schools that "Bic" beat in his 2 years as coach.
I also went back four years, and the state of the program today is worse than it was then.
MemphisMike Wrote:And I see how you completely ignored the comparison to Frank Beamer at VA Tech. The situations are very similar whether you admit it or not. We disagree on the direction of the team. I don't think it's as dire as you want to play it out but that's fine. You go right ahead and keep calling for Coach West to be fired. You're entitled to that opinion. I think your wrong and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it and in doing so it does not mean that I want to "settle for mediocrity" as you want to claim about everyone who doesn't agree with your point. There has to be some underlying cause for all your animosity toward Coach West though. You can't be filled with this much disdain and almost hatred just for losing some football games but that's between you and your conscience.
For every Frank Beamer, I can show you a dozen coaches like Ray Goff who were retained too long. My opinion has nothing to do with West personally. I'd say the same thing regardless of who was coaching the team this poorly.
MemphisMike Wrote:One question and I think it's a legitimate one, have you let your feelings be known to the Pres and AD at the University? If so, then good for you for standing up for your beliefs. If not, why not? Are you just more comfortable sounding off here on a message board where it will accomplish nothing?
Another thing I'd like to know is if the Tigers under Coach West were to go say 9-3 next season or even 8-4 are you still going to be calling for him to be fired?
I never got a response from the Pres or the AD, so I guess they're not concerned with my opinion.
As for next year's team without Hankins and Doss, I'd do cartwheels if we could win eight games. With the anemic defense returning and two key skill positions in doubt, it's highly unlikely they'll even match this year's results. They should've won eight or nine this year, but they underachieved. A good team would've gone 10-3 or 11-2 against our schedule.
jetigerman Wrote:WE WERE 6-2 IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR. WE WERE TIED FOR SECOND. TW IS THE REASON USM FIRED BOWER. HAD ANYONE BEATEN UCF WE WOULD HAVE TIED FOR FIRST.
PARITY
Do not confuse parity with mediocrity. We lost (in a blowout) to UCF and ECU. According to a tiebreaker, we would be third in the division and fifth in the conference.
Tommy also went 0fer against Coach O. That was really bad.
okay Tigersmm, I get what you are saying. But, I have never said I don't have concerns. I do ineed hav concerns. I also see some positives and feel there is some reason for optimisim. I don't share the sky is falling sentiment of some posters. I am DISGUSTED by the defense. I don't in anyway recognize the defense on the field compared older teams. I don't entirely understand the problem. I saw Hinds play In HS and thought that kid would be a beast in college. Instead he ends his career as an underutilized FB. One could say that Greg never improved because of coaching. ( or the lack of) Yes, also, I have season ticks and go to every away game possible. I love the Tigers and it is a big part of my familys life during the season. I also believe that , as tired an excuse as this is--that JLD era really, really hurt. But, again, that excuse is tired and in mind no longer valid. There comes a point where potential has to meet production.
If the defense can improve a small amount, and the offense can continue to produce, we will be better than we were this year. I honestly think this time next year we will be in a competely different situation than we find ourselves in now.
I do have concerns about the RB and QB, but I also believe there is potential there. Malouf and Hall will get a look. I also thik Hudgens can be good--I DO NOT share the sentiment that he can't play because had some issues. Curtis Steele will be good. The offense is not the problem. Special teams and defense, yuck yuk yuck.
Next year, I EXPECT DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT.
jetigerman Wrote:WE WERE 6-2 IN THE LEAGUE THIS YEAR. WE WERE TIED FOR SECOND. TW IS THE REASON USM FIRED BOWER. HAD ANYONE BEATEN UCF WE WOULD HAVE TIED FOR FIRST.
PARITY
You were doing OK until you said parity. Yes there were a bunch of upsets this year and many teams are very close but that had nothing to do with us this year unless you consider parity at the bottom of D-1.
CUSA is a poor league and anyone who tries to argue different is foolish. We outscored the worst teams in CUSA to get to New Orleans. Look at the rankings and CUSA teams make up the many of the worst teams in D-1.
You sound like you are satisfied never winning a very bad conference and losing to average to bad nonconf. teams.
At what point do we expect this program to advance beyond the bottom 10-15% of D-1 teams?
I am not advocating get rid of TW.
I am saying that we have to get better and faster players if we want to move up. We have some good players but few on D and not enough on O. Care to argue quality on special teams?
Until today I have not posted one single comment questioning the Direction of this team since our early to midseason collapse. I made that promise and stuck to it. But it is right and proper and even expected at most schools to demand progress.
We only have approx 14 scollies to give this year so every spot needs to be filled with people who can fill needed postions. We have a huge senior class the next two years so we can target every postion on both sides of the ball. The next two years will tell the direction of this program. The job is TWs to keep or lose.
Before anyone explodes. TW says the same thing. He is greatly concerned about our defense and says it has to get fixed. He is great concerned about our special teams play and says it has to get fixed. He has said we needed to get a lot more physical and is trying to find bigger tougher O and D line players. He says we need help at QB. He says we need help at RB.
TW says his first goal was to get to bowl games. We did that. Now it is to win the conference and compete with BCS level teams.
I am only asking to see progress towards the measuring stick that TW has layed down for this team.
We all agree that the facilities need to be upgraded so that we can have an edge in recruiting, or at least not have a lack of facilities used against us in recruiting.
Why isn't this being addressed by Tommy, the athletic department, and the rest of the administration?
Tommy is the head coach, so he should know what we need to be successful. Why isn't he beating the bushes trying to get it? Calipari has gotten just about everything he has asked for. Coach Daron Schoenrock managed to get upgrades for the baseball facilities, which were in worse shape than the football facilities. If Tommy really wants the football program to be successful, why isn't he raising hell about it? It can't be because he's worried about retribution. He's got a guaranteed contract with a hefty buyout clause.
Why hasn't RC done more to upgrade the facilities for the team with the largest budgetary expenditures of the entire athletic program? With the home football attendance dropping each of the last four years, revenue is rapidly decreasing. Why have the AD and the coach put together a completely unattractive home schedule, if not to inflate the record at the expense of season ticket sales? Why isn't RC a more vocal proponent of the football program? Why isn't he championing the drive to get an on-campus stadium built so that the Tigers can go from tenant to landlord?
What does Shirley Raines have against athletics? Her public statement about the on-campus stadium caused a huge public uproar and she was forced to backpedal. Doesn't she realize the positive impact to the rest of the University by having 40-50K fans on campus six or seven weekends each fall?
the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
If facilities are the difference between a good program and a bad one, why have we lost four consecutive games to Sun Belt teams with worse facilities than we have?
Read to comprehend.
I don't care if we lost to the School For The Blind, I don't see doing the same thing we have done for years. Make the commitment and expect excellence. Otherwise, you are just BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Pete Carroll is not going to be able to make the nag run any faster.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:We all agree that the facilities need to be upgraded so that we can have an edge in recruiting, or at least not have a lack of facilities used against us in recruiting.
Why isn't this being addressed by Tommy, the athletic department, and the rest of the administration?
Tommy is the head coach, so he should know what we need to be successful. Why isn't he beating the bushes trying to get it? Calipari has gotten just about everything he has asked for. Coach Daron Schoenrock managed to get upgrades for the baseball facilities, which were in worse shape than the football facilities. If Tommy really wants the football program to be successful, why isn't he raising hell about it? It can't be because he's worried about retribution. He's got a guaranteed contract with a hefty buyout clause.
Why hasn't RC done more to upgrade the facilities for the team with the largest budgetary expenditures of the entire athletic program? With the home football attendance dropping each of the last four years, revenue is rapidly decreasing. Why have the AD and the coach put together a completely unattractive home schedule, if not to inflate the record at the expense of season ticket sales? Why isn't RC a more vocal proponent of the football program? Why isn't he championing the drive to get an on-campus stadium built so that the Tigers can go from tenant to landlord?
What does Shirley Raines have against athletics? Her public statement about the on-campus stadium caused a huge public uproar and she was forced to backpedal. Doesn't she realize the positive impact to the rest of the University by having 40-50K fans on campus six or seven weekends each fall?
You are beginning to ask the correct questions.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Will anyone defend Coach Tommy West?
Okay, I'll bite. Murphy's winning percentage for 14 seasons in 67%. Since you have all the GREAT research, what did the first 7 seasons look like versus the 2nd 7 seasons? I'll respond more once I have a response.
RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
If facilities are the difference between a good program and a bad one, why have we lost four consecutive games to Sun Belt teams with worse facilities than we have?
Read to comprehend.
I don't care if we lost to the School For The Blind, I don't see doing the same thing we have done for years. Make the commitment and expect excellence. Otherwise, you are just BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Pete Carroll is not going to be able to make the nag run any faster.
There is a huge difference between losing to Ohio State and losing to Arkansas State. One is expected, while the other is a disgrace. As for making the commitment to excellence, that is exactly what I have been saying not just this season but every season. That was the point of this thread. 7-6 is not excellence, especially against our schedule.
The best way to increase the money rolling in is to excite people enough to buy season tickets.
One way to do this is by winning. They haven't won enough lately to excite the public, so they seriously need to improve the W/L record next year over this year. Anything short of eight or nine wins will probably result in another year where attendance drops. Also, the more you win the more people donate to the program.
A second way to get people to buy season tickets is to put together an attractive home schedule. There are some who say that we should support the Tigers no matter who they play, but in reality it hasn't happened and won't happen. The Tennessee game sells out every time they play here, while the Division 1-AA game barely draws a response at all. It is what it is. Upgrading the schedule is one of the easiest ways to increase season ticket sales. We always have one game that is signed year-by-year. Usually we fill it with a Division 1-AA team. We should try harder to get a (non-SEC) BCS team in here. There are 54 teams (including Notre Dame) that we can go after to upgrade the schedule. It would also give us the added advantages of more national exposure, as well as another selling point for recruiting.
1proudpapa Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Will anyone defend Coach Tommy West?
Okay, I'll bite. Murphy's winning percentage for 14 seasons in 67%. Since you have all the GREAT research, what did the first 7 seasons look like versus the 2nd 7 seasons? I'll respond more once I have a response.
Spook Murphy went 48-18-1 in his first seven seasons for a 72.4% winning percentage. He went 43-26 in his second seven seasons for a 62.3% winning percentage.
And his teams were only outscored for the season once in 14 years. His first team allowed two points more than they scored. His other 13 teams all outscored their opponents.
Coach #1: We made a commitment as a football team and a staff that we're gonna work like heck to improve every week, regardless of what people say about us...
Coach #2: We're disappointed in losing the game, but I'm not going to let a loss in a bowl take away from what our senior class has done," "Our seniors have taken our program to a place it's never been. We're awful proud of that. We're awful proud of what they have accomplished. I take my hat off to Florida Atlantic. They did a great job. To be honest, they deserved to win the game. But we're proud of where we are right now. I can't wait to get back out there and start working towards next year."
I think a lot of the problem with how people feel about Tommy is summed up in bold above. He could've just left that sentence out, and things would have been fine. I know that I wasn't proud of where we were...we had just finished getting our backsides handed to us. Of course, we decided that we didn't want to play any more with 6 minutes left anyway...
BTW....Coach #1...That was Phillip Fulmer after BEATING Georgia 35-14 earlier this year.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
If facilities are the difference between a good program and a bad one, why have we lost four consecutive games to Sun Belt teams with worse facilities than we have?
Read to comprehend.
I don't care if we lost to the School For The Blind, I don't see doing the same thing we have done for years. Make the commitment and expect excellence. Otherwise, you are just BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Pete Carroll is not going to be able to make the nag run any faster.
There is a huge difference between losing to Ohio State and losing to Arkansas State. One is expected, while the other is a disgrace. As for making the commitment to excellence, that is exactly what I have been saying not just this season but every season. That was the point of this thread. 7-6 is not excellence, especially against our schedule.
The best way to increase the money rolling in is to excite people enough to buy season tickets.
One way to do this is by winning. They haven't won enough lately to excite the public, so they seriously need to improve the W/L record next year over this year. Anything short of eight or nine wins will probably result in another year where attendance drops. Also, the more you win the more people donate to the program.
A second way to get people to buy season tickets is to put together an attractive home schedule. There are some who say that we should support the Tigers no matter who they play, but in reality it hasn't happened and won't happen. The Tennessee game sells out every time they play here, while the Division 1-AA game barely draws a response at all. It is what it is. Upgrading the schedule is one of the easiest ways to increase season ticket sales. We always have one game that is signed year-by-year. Usually we fill it with a Division 1-AA team. We should try harder to get a (non-SEC) BCS team in here. There are 54 teams (including Notre Dame) that we can go after to upgrade the schedule. It would also give us the added advantages of more national exposure, as well as another selling point for recruiting.
The beatings will continue until morale is improved..................
The money will come with winning so we need to win to get money. Can you not see the circular reasoning in this?
Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result. Let's try something we have not done before................but has worked elsewhere. Upgrade facilities and budgets.
You are just arguing to keep your little name at the top of the message board.
RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
If facilities are the difference between a good program and a bad one, why have we lost four consecutive games to Sun Belt teams with worse facilities than we have?
Read to comprehend.
I don't care if we lost to the School For The Blind, I don't see doing the same thing we have done for years. Make the commitment and expect excellence. Otherwise, you are just BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Pete Carroll is not going to be able to make the nag run any faster.
There is a huge difference between losing to Ohio State and losing to Arkansas State. One is expected, while the other is a disgrace. As for making the commitment to excellence, that is exactly what I have been saying not just this season but every season. That was the point of this thread. 7-6 is not excellence, especially against our schedule.
The best way to increase the money rolling in is to excite people enough to buy season tickets.
One way to do this is by winning. They haven't won enough lately to excite the public, so they seriously need to improve the W/L record next year over this year. Anything short of eight or nine wins will probably result in another year where attendance drops. Also, the more you win the more people donate to the program.
A second way to get people to buy season tickets is to put together an attractive home schedule. There are some who say that we should support the Tigers no matter who they play, but in reality it hasn't happened and won't happen. The Tennessee game sells out every time they play here, while the Division 1-AA game barely draws a response at all. It is what it is. Upgrading the schedule is one of the easiest ways to increase season ticket sales. We always have one game that is signed year-by-year. Usually we fill it with a Division 1-AA team. We should try harder to get a (non-SEC) BCS team in here. There are 54 teams (including Notre Dame) that we can go after to upgrade the schedule. It would also give us the added advantages of more national exposure, as well as another selling point for recruiting.
The beatings will continue until morale is improved..................
The money will come with winning so we need to win to get money. Can you not see the circular reasoning in this?
Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result. Let's try something we have not done before................but has worked elsewhere. Upgrade facilities and budgets.
You are just arguing to keep your little name at the top of the message board.
we went 1-3 with this schedule....
so how does losing to 2 Sun Belt teams and one of the worst Ole Miss team in their history help raise money for facilities?
Dylan Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Why are people hesitant to take an honest look at the program?
Who is not honest? Some think Tommy West is fully capable of leading the program to its potential. Some don't. Months ago, it was discussed. Nothing has changed along that time. You fire the coach...............done that many times before. You upgrade facilities, budgets, etc...................not done that so much. Why not do that? You have tried the other.
It makes no sense to fire the coach when the underlying program is not changed.
All the stuff you posted above just shows that we had two poor seasons. This year was not as bad as the last one. No one is overjoyed about 7-6. You cannot seem to grasp that so why would anyone want to bother with you?
I can guarantee you that the people in charge are 1) pleased we went to a bowl this year; 2) anxious to see additional improvement. I can live with that.
Your only action related to this program is to sit in judgment from a keyboard. You do not go to games. You do not provide any support for fundraising or to the booster groups. That is fine. But don't expect those that do to say "Thank you. You are bringing us to a new realization of what the Utopia should be".
You upgrade the program's infrastructure and then we can talk coaches. Until then, you look like an *** when you start 17 threads wanting the coach fired.
If facilities are the difference between a good program and a bad one, why have we lost four consecutive games to Sun Belt teams with worse facilities than we have?
Read to comprehend.
I don't care if we lost to the School For The Blind, I don't see doing the same thing we have done for years. Make the commitment and expect excellence. Otherwise, you are just BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Pete Carroll is not going to be able to make the nag run any faster.
There is a huge difference between losing to Ohio State and losing to Arkansas State. One is expected, while the other is a disgrace. As for making the commitment to excellence, that is exactly what I have been saying not just this season but every season. That was the point of this thread. 7-6 is not excellence, especially against our schedule.
The best way to increase the money rolling in is to excite people enough to buy season tickets.
One way to do this is by winning. They haven't won enough lately to excite the public, so they seriously need to improve the W/L record next year over this year. Anything short of eight or nine wins will probably result in another year where attendance drops. Also, the more you win the more people donate to the program.
A second way to get people to buy season tickets is to put together an attractive home schedule. There are some who say that we should support the Tigers no matter who they play, but in reality it hasn't happened and won't happen. The Tennessee game sells out every time they play here, while the Division 1-AA game barely draws a response at all. It is what it is. Upgrading the schedule is one of the easiest ways to increase season ticket sales. We always have one game that is signed year-by-year. Usually we fill it with a Division 1-AA team. We should try harder to get a (non-SEC) BCS team in here. There are 54 teams (including Notre Dame) that we can go after to upgrade the schedule. It would also give us the added advantages of more national exposure, as well as another selling point for recruiting.
The beatings will continue until morale is improved..................
The money will come with winning so we need to win to get money. Can you not see the circular reasoning in this?
Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result. Let's try something we have not done before................but has worked elsewhere. Upgrade facilities and budgets.
You are just arguing to keep your little name at the top of the message board.
we went 1-3 with this schedule....
so how does losing to 2 Sun Belt teams and one of the worst Ole Miss team in their history help raise money for facilities?
This is not rewarding the winner. It is investing in the future of the program.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:We all agree that the facilities need to be upgraded so that we can have an edge in recruiting, or at least not have a lack of facilities used against us in recruiting.
Why isn't this being addressed by Tommy, the athletic department, and the rest of the administration?
Tommy is the head coach, so he should know what we need to be successful. Why isn't he beating the bushes trying to get it? Calipari has gotten just about everything he has asked for. Coach Daron Schoenrock managed to get upgrades for the baseball facilities, which were in worse shape than the football facilities. If Tommy really wants the football program to be successful, why isn't he raising hell about it? It can't be because he's worried about retribution. He's got a guaranteed contract with a hefty buyout clause.
Why hasn't RC done more to upgrade the facilities for the team with the largest budgetary expenditures of the entire athletic program? With the home football attendance dropping each of the last four years, revenue is rapidly decreasing. Why have the AD and the coach put together a completely unattractive home schedule, if not to inflate the record at the expense of season ticket sales? Why isn't RC a more vocal proponent of the football program? Why isn't he championing the drive to get an on-campus stadium built so that the Tigers can go from tenant to landlord?
What does Shirley Raines have against athletics? Her public statement about the on-campus stadium caused a huge public uproar and she was forced to backpedal. Doesn't she realize the positive impact to the rest of the University by having 40-50K fans on campus six or seven weekends each fall?
Why don't we wait and see what the OCS study looks like and what response SR and RC give. As for TW, I'm sure he has made his wishes known to the people that make a difference.
RandyMc Wrote:Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result.
So, if we keep Tommy we can expect more 7-6 seasons and losses to Sun Belt teams?
People will not invest in the program if it does not generate excitement. The woeful schedule and the lackluster results on the field aren't generating any excitement. Attendance numbers are dropping, and that needs to be addressed immediately.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result.
So, if we keep Tommy we can expect more 7-6 seasons and losses to Sun Belt teams?
People will not invest in the program if it does not generate excitement. The woeful schedule and the lackluster results on the field aren't generating any excitement. Attendance numbers are dropping, and that needs to be addressed immediately.
And it's been during Tommy's tenure that we've had a lot of excitement. With the possible exception of Rex's one 6 win year and Williamson's first couple of years the West years have generated more excitement than at any other time in our football history. Admittedly, we've got some work to do to bolster season tickets for next year.
Let's look at the continued reference to Chuck Stobart and his teams. Let's all be honest with ourselves.....how much excitement did they generate? Enough that at the absolute highpoint in his time here, when we had a Liberty Bowl bid on the line against ECU, we drew 21K-24K. I can't remember the exact number.
Lastly, Randy is smarter than I am and can answer for himself, but I'm sure his "keep doing what we've been doing" was refering to the continual scheduling of overly challanging OOC games, and continually not investing in the long term future of our football program yet expecting a change in the result.
oldtiger Wrote:And it's been during Tommy's tenure that we've had a lot of excitement. With the possible exception of Rex's one 6 win year and Williamson's first couple of years the West years have generated more excitement than at any other time in our football history. Admittedly, we've got some work to do to bolster season tickets for next year.
But what has happened to that excitement? Average attendance figures are down by 11,505 since 2003. The best marketing campaign in the world won't change those numbers unless they find some way to excite people into buying tickets.
When the contracts run out, we need to drop the Sun Belt games. Our fans aren't stupid. They know the schedule is watered down and they don't appreciate it.
Yes, let's be honest with ourselves. You mentioned Stobart and the low attendance at his games. Attendance was also part of the reason Larry Finch was let go. Average attendance has dropped to 29,670 this year in football. If it drops much lower, the university will have to make some changes and one of them will probably be head coach Tommy West.
Eliminating all the other stuff about how the program is going down and attendance is going down, etc.......... You have a real problem Greg. You are obsessed with the Sun Belt Conference. I mean really obsessed. Go back and read your own posts. You need to get over it and move on. Start your own Fire Tommy West website or something but for pete's sake, let go of the Sun Belt stuff. You're really making your arguments look more and more silly with your obsession.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Tigers23 Wrote:the other Greg Childers Wrote:Just to clean up the boards a bit, I suggest moving the remainder of the discussion about Tommy West and the football program here. There's no need to race across 15 different threads, when we can discuss it here.
I'll agree to keep the discussion polite, and use facts to back up my statements. I recommend that everyone else do the same.
I'll refrain from calling people "happy clappers." I recommend that everyone else refrain from calling me and others who agree as "miserables."
Let's have an honest, intelligent debate about the state of the football program, and do it without animosity. Let's see if we can do it.
We need speed and lots of it. At this current time, we have none.
Agreed, but how is it being addressed?
What does anyone know about Arkelon Hall?
Speed costs money, how fast you wanna go?
oldtiger,
That game with ECU with a Liberty Bowl bid to the winner was one of the most boring games I can remember as a long-time Tiger fan. It was so boring--and so predictable that I left with my wife to go Christmas shopping at the half. That game was Chuck's last. Anybody who remembers Groundchuck football knows that TW football is FAR more fun--and a lot more wins as well. Leave early from a TW game and you miss comebacks and touchdowns.
Serioulsy...we get it...the Tigers lost to Sun Belt teams. I wasn't sure about that until Childers mentioned it 1000 times.
A different perspective...
To those who posted above...we didn't get BLOWN OUT by any Sun Belt team. We were down by 3 with the ball in the 2nd half and had momentum until the missed assignment on the blocked punt. Then Hankins went down.
We lost to ASU this year after having a huge lead, then had the go ahead TD called back on a penalty...the same ASU team that only lost at Texas by 8, and at USM by 6.
We lost to ASU last year on a hail mary.
We lost to MTSU in an excruciatingly boring game without Hankins.
It is not like we are being outplayed/outclassed by those teams. We easily could have won all of those games.
Alabama lost to a Sun Belt (La. Monroe) team this year (and they are in the Mighty SEC) and Sabin still has his job. Troy has recent victories over Oklahoma State and Missouri.
Losing Hankins is tough, but with the receivers in place, hopefully we can find a qb who can manage the game effectively.
As for losing Doss, Childers, we have two very capable replacements in Barnes and Pitts.
Maybe coaching is the problem. I say wait 'til next season is done, see if there has been progress from this year (with essentially the same schedule) and make the appropriate adjustments then.
MemphisMike Wrote:Eliminating all the other stuff about how the program is going down and attendance is going down, etc.......... You have a real problem Greg. You are obsessed with the Sun Belt Conference. I mean really obsessed. Go back and read your own posts. You need to get over it and move on. Start your own Fire Tommy West website or something but for pete's sake, let go of the Sun Belt stuff. You're really making your arguments look more and more silly with your obsession.
Why do you insist on sweeping it under the rug? It is what it is.
Tommy has lost four consecutive Sun Belt games in the last two years. Three Sun Belt teams beat us this year by an average of 11.7 points per game. Two of them were blowouts and one was a total meltdown where we blew a 25 point lead.
He has lost two consecutive games to Arkansas State. We haven't lost consecutive games to Arkansas State since 1930-32. Rip Scherer went undefeated against Arkansas State.
Except for C-USA, the Sun Belt is the worst Division 1-A football conference. A large part of that is because we are dragging our conference down with our Sagarin ranking of 123.
The combined record of the teams that we beat this year: 26-58.
The combined record of the teams that beat us this year: 39-36.
Three of the teams that beat us had losing records.
We only beat one team with a winning record.
I fail to see how anyone can consider this season successful.
salukiblue Wrote:Serioulsy...we get it...the Tigers lost to Sun Belt teams. I wasn't sure about that until Childers mentioned it 1000 times.
A different perspective...
To those who posted above...we didn't get BLOWN OUT by any Sun Belt team. We were down by 3 with the ball in the 2nd half and had momentum until the missed assignment on the blocked punt. Then Hankins went down.
We lost to ASU this year after having a huge lead, then had the go ahead TD called back on a penalty...the same ASU team that only lost at Texas by 8, and at USM by 6.
We lost to ASU last year on a hail mary.
We lost to MTSU in an excruciatingly boring game without Hankins.
It is not like we are being outplayed/outclassed by those teams. We easily could have won all of those games.
Alabama lost to a Sun Belt (La. Monroe) team this year (and they are in the Mighty SEC) and Sabin still has his job. Troy has recent victories over Oklahoma State and Missouri.
Losing Hankins is tough, but with the receivers in place, hopefully we can find a qb who can manage the game effectively.
As for losing Doss, Childers, we have two very capable replacements in Barnes and Pitts.
Maybe coaching is the problem. I say wait 'til next season is done, see if there has been progress from this year (with essentially the same schedule) and make the appropriate adjustments then.
I give the team a pass for the MTSU loss. To a man they have all said that after the Taylor Bradford memorial they were drained and in shock for that game. The Marshall game was played on sheer emotion but the MTSU was after the emotion had worn off and left them empty. That's what they say. Combine that with the loss of your senior leader. Will is, I still think, a fine QB, but what he did not have at that point was the leadership capacity that Hankins had. Hankins was the team leader, at least in the second half of the season.
I know it makes no difference to TOGC and some others whatsoever. He hates TW so blindly that no other conditions matter. It's just my opinion, but I think the MTSU loss should be off the table. To hold the coaches and team responsible in the conditions prevailing at the time is asking too much and taking sports way too seriously.
But that's just me. As always, your results may vary.
Quote:Tommy has lost four consecutive Sun Belt games in the last two years. Three Sun Belt teams beat us by an average of 11.7 points per game. Two of them were blowouts and one was a total meltdown where we blew a 25 point lead.
What blowouts? I know you don't go to the games, but you can at least watch them. MTSU was a 7 point game in the 4th quarter...regardless a 14 point loss is not a 'blowout'.
As for the bowl game, you recall we were down by 3 late in the 3rd with the ball. Sorry, not a blowout.
Quote:He has lost two consecutive games to Arkansas State. We haven't lost consecutive games to Arkansas State since 1930-32. Rip Scherer went undefeated against Arkansas State.
Lost on a hail mary, and a game we gave away. No evidence that ASU is actually a better program, they just won two in a row.
Quote:Except for C-USA, the Sun Belt is the worst Division 1-A football conference. A large part of that is because we are dragging our conference down with our Sagarin ranking of 123.
The sun belt has non-conference wins over Big 10, Big 12, and SEC teams this year, CUSA doesn't. Who's the better conference?
It would be convenient for you if I did hate Tommy. It would save you the trouble of having to make a logical argument for keeping him.
Unfortunately, I don't hate him. I never did. In fact, I like the guy. His folksy, "aw shucks" personality is very endearing.
But that is not why he was hired. He was hired to coach. And he has underachieved at that.
If you think we should keep him because he's a great guy, then we should've never gotten rid of Rip. He was a great guy too.
Sagarin rankings of the three Sun Belt teams who beat us this year:
86. Florida Atlantic
99. MTSU
122. Arkansas State
Our Sagarin ranking:
123. Memphis
Don't forget the fact that Tommy went 0-3 against Coach O at Mississippi, whose record was 10-25.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:I don't believe in rewarding mediocrity. It only breeds more mediocrity.
I don't believe in sitting at home while other programs gain the benefits of exposure, boosted morale, extra practice time, etc.. I suffered thru 32 years of that already. I am for grabbing a bowl game anyway and anytime we can, with no reservation whatsoever. As for breeding mediocrity, I worry more about our mediocre "fans" who do more damage than good with their simplistic "fire the coach" mentality and attitude of supporting the team "when they deserve it".
Quote:Besides, the argument is irrelevant. Both great teams and mediocre ones make bowls these days. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather we have a great team that makes a bowl.
So would I - in fact, make that a BCS bowl. That is why I am delighted to know that we currently have one of our finest coaching staffs in Tiger history on the recruiting trail as we type.
TOGC,
I'm not sure anyone (fans) really know where our program is right now and that is the chief cause of concern for many. Have we truly turned the corner (4 bowls in 5 years) or are we losing ground to other programs (4 sunbelt losses in a row, weak schedule) whose schools are showing more commitment ($) to their football programs?
I stated earlier this season when the whole OCS fiasco and the disinformation came out of our administration that I believe it affected our team, but that this season would still be what this team made it. They finished strong. The Southern Miss win was a great, great win for our program.
I don't know the answer to this, but this much I do know. Tommy isn't going anywhere right now, so we may as well support him. His salary is not exhorbitant in this day and age, but for us as a non BCS school, it is enough for us to expect to win and to grow our program. If I'm driving 55 and others around me are driving 85, does that mean I'm not moving forward?
I'm hoping right now, we're moving at 55 mph and some other schools are just speeding on by us and that we are not in neutral or reverse. I think 900k should buy more than neutral. I also think it says a lot about the growth of our program (and that we are not in neutral) that we are bickering after a winning season and going to a bowl game.
I do believe we need more commitment from our administration. I am disappointed in our defense, and I'm not sure if this is residual JLD or on TW. I do think Tommy could better motivate our players, and if he cant, he should find assistants who can. We had several halves and a few games this year where we didn't show up. This was a rough season, heck past two seasons, for all Tiger football fans, players and coaches.
If Hudgens returns for next season, I think we will be fine at QB. After the break, he was obviously not prepared to play QB in the Bowl Game
I wish I had the answer. I don't. These are just a few of my random thoughts. Right now, I'm just going to support our players and staff because thats the only positive thing I know to do, not because I have blinders on.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Don't forget the fact that Tommy went 0-3 against Coach O at Mississippi, whose record was 10-25.
He also won two in a row, including a 'blowout' (by your definition) over Eli's team.
the other Greg Childers Wrote:RandyMc Wrote:Keep doing what you have been doing and you will get a similar result.
So, if we keep Tommy we can expect more 7-6 seasons and losses to Sun Belt teams?
Yes, in the off years. More important, in the good years we will be winning BCS bowl games. Tommy West is committed to taking our football program to a higher level - too bad our "experts" cannot see that. Too many experts, not enough fans....that is a common problem. Imagine how much easier it will be to recruit when we have at least 50,000 enthusiastic Tiger fans at every home game. We would be wise to concentrate on doing our part and let the 4th-winningest coach in Tiger history do his.
Gray Avenger Wrote:I don't believe in sitting at home while other programs gain the benefits of exposure, boosted morale, extra practice time, etc.. I suffered thru 32 years of that already. I am for grabbing a bowl game anyway and anytime we can, with no reservation whatsoever. As for breeding mediocrity, I worry more about our mediocre "fans" who do more damage than good with their simplistic "fire the coach" mentality and attitude of supporting the team "when they deserve it".
It sounds like you are settling for less. The line "anyway and anytime we can, with no reservation whatsoever" pretty much sums it up.
And blaming it on fans who want to raise the bar is counterproductive. We were here before Tommy and we'll be here after he's gone.
Gray Avenger Wrote:So would I - in fact, make that a BCS bowl. That is why I am delighted to know that we currently have one of our finest coaching staffs in Tiger history on the recruiting trail as we type.
There is no evidence to back up your final statement.
salukiblue Wrote:He also won two in a row, including a 'blowout' (by your definition) over Eli's team.
That was in 2003, and we have gone downhill since then.
Gray Avenger Wrote:Yes, in the off years. More important, in the good years we will be winning BCS bowl games. Tommy West is committed to taking our football program to a higher level - too bad our "experts" cannot see that. Too many experts, not enough fans....that is a common problem. Imagine how much easier it will be to recruit when we have at least 50,000 enthusiastic Tiger fans at every home game. We would be wise to concentrate on doing our part and let the 4th-winningest coach in Tiger history do his.
Fans don't recruit. Fans don't win games. Games are won or lost on the field, not in the stands. Fans are customers, and right now a lot of them are unhappy with the product.
The 4th winningest coach also has the ninth winning percentage at 48.2%. He's fourth in wins because he has been here seven years, the fourth longest tenure of any Tiger coach.