NCAAbbs

Is this going to cost Peavy the Cy Young?

Also they keep talking about Peavy trying to become the second 20 game winner. It doesnt seem fair that he would get credit for a regular season win in his teams 163rd game. This is post season to me anyways.

lit up? isn't it 5-5?

The guy who was supposed to be the best pitcher in the NL got hit up for 6 runs. I believe he had given up 3 of those runs and the Padres were down 3-0 after 2 innings when I posted. Yeah San Diego came back but still a pretty pathetic effort by Peavy. And dont get me started on Hoffman, if that loser ever gets into the HOF I think Ill barf.

didn't recognize the time you posted.

umm, hoffman deserves it. he and rivera are the only two closers right now who deserve the hall. you'd be pretty hard pressed to find someone who thinks he doesn't belong, apart from you of course.

I would never vote any closer into the Hall ever, but he especially has no business in the Hall. His numbers in big games are atrocious. Just this year the Padres twice had leads in games that would have gotten them into the playoffs, they bring in Hoffman and he blows it. Rivera is good but if its up to me Im not letting him in either.

how can you not put rivera in? I'd figure someone who watches as much baseball as you would appreciate how hard it is to not only be a great closer but do it so consistently for a long period of time. It's so difficult to have over 10 great years. You also realize that rivera was probably the second most important player (Jeter) on the yankees 4 championships in the 90's?

As for Hoffman, well if you're gonna grade him on this year alone, your argument won't hold much weight. He's not as good as he used to be. Take a look at his stats and his consistency, they're incredible. He probably would've had more big game performances under his belt to bolster his resume if he played for better teams.

I used to have the same sentiment about closers as you, but over the past few years i've become extremely appreciative of what a great closer can do for your team and how hard it is to be great and stay that way. You can't just stick any starter in that job and expect them to be great for 10 years. Some pitchers can't handle throwing 3 or 4 days in a row.

Hoffman blew a game in the 98 world series as well, it would have been San Diegos only win against the Yankees in the world series but too bad he sucks.

I agree that it is extremely difficult to be a successful closer for a long period of time, it is very stressful but that doesnt mean I have to care about closers or think its valuable. Its such bullshit to me, a save is such a stupid arbitrary statistic. IMO you would be 100% better off using your best reliever to get out of a jam in the 6th, 7th or 8th inning than saving him for the 9th with a 3 run lead and no one on.

Look at it this way, lets say your closer is a lefty and the opposing team has 3 righties coming up in the 9th, its just retarded to pitch him, if a manager brought a lefty in to face 3 straight righties in the 7th then fans across the country would be calling for his head.

Id agree it takes a certain amount of fortitude to be a great closer (as you said very few have been consistently good) but I just dont think someone should make the HOF based on a stat that is completely overvalued and really worthless. If you want to put a reliever in the hall give it to a guy who has come into a game with runners in scoring position 500 times and not let the runner score, thats the stuff that wins ball games to me.

**** closers.

i'm not sure i get completely understand your post.

if you use your best reliever in the 6th, how can you save him for the 9th? Plus, if you used him that often wouldn't he eventually become your go to guy in the late innings and then become your closer anyway?

Umm, if your closer is billy wagner then i'd have no problem bringing him in. What if your closer was a righty and there was lefties coming up, would you have a problem them? To a great LHP, there isn't a difference. I'd have no problem if bochy brought in taschner to face 3 straight righties. He's excellent against them.

I agree with you about the save stat. It's completely BS, but it's not what i use when i grade a closer. That's why i say it's difficult to grade them. I mean look at Valverde. The guy had 47 saves, what a bunch of BS. But you look at Rivera and he's had 2 inning saves, he's pitched 4 days in a row and been incredibly consistent for 12 years. I still think hoffman belongs in as well, but i didn't realize he blew a game in the 97 playoffs. I remember that series, but i can't remember any of the games, i was only 11. Hell i can only remember bits and pieces of 5th grade, but i digress.

BTW, i wonder how long this will stay as a 2 person argument. This board's become a ghost town.

My point was this. In recent years the best pitcher in your bullpen is your closer, who the majority of the time is used in the beginning of the ninth inning with nobody on. If your starter gets in a jam in a close game and you take him out put your best guy in regardless of what inning it is. I dont know maybe it doesnt make any difference but to me saving your best guy for the ninth or occasionally the 8th every time just to get him in a save situtation is retarded, put that sucker in when your starter is gassed and leaves the bases loaded in the 6th when you are up just one.

It seems like you're putting as much weight on the 7th as you do the 9th and in reality it just doesn't work out like that. i can completely understand where you're coming from, but we've learned over the past 20 years that it's a special pitcher who can consistently handle the 9th. Look at octavio dotel. The guy was one of the best setup men in the league, but he simply couldn't pitch the 9th. He was amazing in the 8th, but just couldn't close.

Also, if you continued to use your best guy in those situations he'd be pretty gassed after a couple weeks.

i feel like i didn't say all i wanted to, but i'm having trouble finishing my thought so i'll leave it at that. i think you get what i'm trying to say.

Id argue that more games are won and lost against crappy relievers in the sixth and seventh than with none on in the 9th. How many baseball games do you watch where the key of the game is to make the starter throw a lot of pitchers and get into the bullpen? Im not sure where to look it up but I would guess that baseball games are won or lost in the 9th less than 15% of the time (ie lead changes). I just dont think what happens in the ninth is any more important than any other inning and I think the numbers would back me up.

I cant even seem to find numbers on blown saves this season but I did find a list of the guys with the most single season blown saves, Rollie Fingers was at the top tied with 3 others with 14. The most recent was Ron Davis in 1984.

Also here are the all time leaders in blown saves

1. Goose Gossage - 112
2. Rollie Fingers - 109
3. Jeff Reardon - 106
4. Lee Smith - 103
5. Bruce Sutter - 101
6. John Franco* - 100
7. Sparky Lyle* - 86
8. Gene Garber - 82
9. Kent Tekulve - 81
10. Gary Lavelle* - 80

Interesting that of the top 5 two are HOFers and another one should be (Gossage).

i couldn't agree more. that's one of the biggest reasons as to why this is a hitter's era. There are too many pieces of garbage like an aaron fultz, who are relied on heavily in 6th or 7th innings. The problem is, with SP's not going as many innings as they used to, team's have to use more relievers and you have to choose what innings you want to use your best pitcher(s). Knowing Rivera can't pitch more than 2 innings, do you want to use him in the 7th or save him for the 9th, which is a different inning than the 6th, 7th and 8th?

Again, i see where you're coming from, but with starters often going less than 6 innings (chris young) we have the situation that our conservation is based on.

It's hard for me to interpret those Blown save numbers because of the factors that go into it, especially back then when most closers were pitching multiple innings. I also can't say whether any of those guys deserve the HOF, because i never saw them play. It's pretty easy to determine whether position players or SP's from that era deserve the HOF, even if you didn't see them play. But i can't determine whether a closer deserves it or not, if i haven't watched him pitch multiple times. As we've determined, a closer can't just be graded on his stats.

This is where we disagree, I honestly dont think the 9th should be treated differently, because it is treated differently now days is why we have so many problems with teams looking for and overpaying for crappy closers all the time.

Neither of us can really use stats to prove our points, but i've seen a bunch of great setup men who couldn't handle the ninth. I serious think there's a different mentality. It's kinda like how Soriano is a great hitter, but he's better in the leadoff spot than in the middle of the order. Different spots have different mentalities.

Yeah i hate this too. One of my theories is that since it's so easy to build an ADEQUATE bullpen, there's no reason to spend millions of dollars on RP's. True, it's difficult to find tremendous closers, but it's easy to find closers who are good enough. Look at the Giants; they've finally decided to build the pen from within and they've found the guy to replace robb nen. Brian Wilson is a beast. He throws mid to high 90's with a cutter that would make rivera proud. It's honestly the second best cutter in MLB.

I hope you don't misinterpret me as trying to say that these adequate closers who often save over 40 games, deserve to make the HOF. Just because he's good enough to win you a WS, doesn't mean he deserves to make the HOF. The closer role has really become unique over the years.

Yeah mentally its different, but here is what Im suggesting, maybe Dotel could handle it better if he wasnt counted on to pitch the 9th every night, if he is your best pitcher use him whenever you need him to get out of a tough situation. Dont designate someone to pitch the ninth every game and I think you will relieve some of that pressure. Dotel may end up pitching in the 9th one game but the next it will be someone else depending on matchups and whoever is hot and what not. Get rid of the closer role and you get rid of the pressures that go with it.

I like what the Tigers do, Zumaya is obviously their best reliever but Todd Jones is still the closer, but if it were me I wouldnt have a designated closer at all.

I really dont know what happened to change things but as recently as the 80s the idea of a closer was something completely different than it is today. This season there were 7 guys with more than 40 saves. In 1981 there were just 4 guys with more than 20 saves.

but hasn't your best reliever always pitched the 9th?