NCAAbbs

After watching this it's clear.....

It's time to leave Iraq. Either the necessary huge numbers of troops to fix Iraq's problems outright need to be put up... or it's time for a Vietnam bail.

I assume that's silent agreement I'm hearing.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:I assume that's silent agreement I'm hearing.

Well, if you only put up one viewpoint, then I guess you have the luxury of believing that's the needed course of action.

I, however, don't.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:I assume that's silent agreement I'm hearing.

I think a lot of it is silent disagreement. But you can read what you want into silence.

I'd love to hear what the disagreement is over regarding the documentary.

I'll say up front the truly good stories are not reported like they should be... but I'll also say up front the true scale of bloodshed there is not reported like it should be either. I've seen some pretty galling tapes of what some troops have done. I don't know if that is explainable by venting of war zone stress or what not, but it's certainly not excusable.

The journalists keep complaining that the news they can get from the 'green zone" is sanitized, because they cannot leave without military protection. Protection from who? If they want to show the terrorist side of the stroy, get the terrorists to protect them from the Americans while they film. Should be easy. Well, the Americans and the other terrorists. But the terrorists don't want a neutral reporter just reporting the facts. One of the subjects in the documentary said it himself, that it is the neutral journalists who are targeted. The ones representing certain viewpoints are protected by those sharing the viewpoints. Neutrals have nobody protecting them.

Of course, the journalists are always only going to get the stories their protectors want them to get, no matter who the protectors are. Or they can choose to go out without any protection. So far that has not been their choice.

He complains also that the news footage is sanitized for impact, that instead of bloody mangled bodies we get shots of ambulances. He says that if we showed the bloody horrific details, no one would ever want to go to war. OK, if you believe that, then we should televise on the ten o'clock news the bloody bodies of the clecrks killed in a convenience storre hold-up, so that nobody would ever want to hold up a convenience store again. Maybe footage of the 2 year old killed in the drive by will make all the gang members quit forever.


Who is killing who over there? He talks of a bombing in a marketplace that kills 135 - was that done by an American? A taxi driver talks of a bomb set off in a waiting line - again, was that an American?

I agree with you that it is either time to put in the numbers to do the job or to do a bail. I disagree with your choice.

I don't see how this documentary supports either choice.

very interesting documentary

The total pull out option has one problem, being that the USA marched into a country to pull a tyrant but then left while the country was in ruin. Of course, the occupation seems to perpetuate the chaos going on. US soldiers are demonized (and in some cases rightfully so) to the point that they can do no right. Continuing occupation does not seem to help in creating a stable country. If anything, if there are no troops there then blame of the soldiers would have less credibility.

just pullout, who cares what other countries think?

fsquid Wrote:just pullout, who cares what other countries think?

terrorists will think they've won, and they will be right. Pulling out now is a defeat for America and there is no other way around it. Islamic extremists will be emboldened because it will be proven (again) that America lacks the will see a job through to completion.

Pulling out now will would have horrific consequences for our future as a nation.

Can't be too much worse than right now.

Any country or group -- no matter how small -- knows that the US is too chicken to commit major resources to resolve any conflict. They know if they keep killing US soldiers, no matter how bad their own losses are, support for the war will lessen and things will snowball and get worse for US. Further discouragement to deploy additional resources, etc.

- Vietnam
- Somalia
- Afghanistan
- Iraq

Four reasons why the US should retire as international policeman unless it's something that has a direct threat upon the US. In that case there should be an overwhelming pouring of resources to solve the conflict quickly and decisively.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

fsquid Wrote:just pullout, who cares what other countries think?

terrorists will think they've won, and they will be right. Pulling out now is a defeat for America and there is no other way around it. Islamic extremists will be emboldened because it will be proven (again) that America lacks the will see a job through to completion.

Pulling out now will would have horrific consequences for our future as a nation.

I think the chance of another attack happening here is about the same as if we pulled out. Do you really think our presence over there really has an affect on the sleeper cells here?

Does anyone think think things will get better if we pull out? How? Why? Please don't start your answer with "At least...."

I think if we get out, then the civil war starts in earnest. People start dying in larger and larger numbers. Sort of like Darfur, where our absence has stopped nothing.

All the jihadis who are fighting us now in Iraq aren't going to go home and start selling insurance. Their job, their calling, is to fight for Allah against the forces of evil, and that is still us, whether we are there or not. It just shifts the battlefield and frees up resources for them.

But mainly, I think that within ten years of a pllout, we will have to be back. And we will be starting from scratch, and the enemy will have time to cement their positions and build their alliances and build their forces, and that means in the long run we will have more American lives lost and more expense, with less results. If i thought it would calm down and go away with our retreat I would say leave. I don't.

We had isolationists in this country before. Hitler? None of our business. Poland, England, France. Keep out of it. Leave them alone and they will leave us alone. How did that work out for us?

People confuse the issue by saying we should should never have been there, or that we should have finished it the first time. Meaningless drivel. It doesn't matter whether we should have or shouldn't have. We always have to start from where we are, not where we should have been, could have been, or from where we wish we were. And where we are is Iraq, and the choices are to try to succeed or to quit and let whatever will happen, happen. I think the better choice is to finish the job, and finish it right. But now we have leaders who are not statesmen, but politicians. They care more about the next (and the last) election than they care for the future of this country. So their decisions are made with an eye to electibility, not consequences to the nation, and so we will abandon this problem, only to face it again, doubled and redoubled, in the future.

I really don't care if things get better in Iraq, that is the Iraq people's problem.

fsquid Wrote:

Ninerfan1 Wrote:

fsquid Wrote:just pullout, who cares what other countries think?

terrorists will think they've won, and they will be right. Pulling out now is a defeat for America and there is no other way around it. Islamic extremists will be emboldened because it will be proven (again) that America lacks the will see a job through to completion.

Pulling out now will would have horrific consequences for our future as a nation.

I think the chance of another attack happening here is about the same as if we pulled out. Do you really think our presence over there really has an affect on the sleeper cells here?

Yes I do. And I believe all evidence points to that fact. How else do you explain us not being hit again?

Terrorists desire to hit us here has not diminished but their ability to do so has. Devoting fighters to Iraq means there are less to train and come here.

The problem is America as a whole aren't into fighting wars of prevention, only reaction. You've seen it throughout the 20th century.

My position on Iraq is simple. Go full blown, all out, no holds barred (minus nukes) on the insurgency and wipe them out. Then get the hell out of the country. But the media, the "world" and the democratic party won't let us do that. So basically we're backed into a corner of stay and make no progress or leave and show ourselves to be unwilling to see any job through. Basically putting us on par with the rest of the world. That's not where I want to be.

i say nuke em.

yes i know what i am saying.

Quote:The journalists keep complaining that the news they can get from the 'green zone" is sanitized, because they cannot leave without military protection. Protection from who? If they want to show the terrorist side of the stroy, get the terrorists to protect them from the Americans while they film. Should be easy.

There is a cottage industry of kidnappings. The reason you don't see journalists outside the green zone because they are walking hundred dollar bills. Not enough boots on the ground. The problem will always go back to that. There is a great piece in TIME magazine about Al-Sadr. Two years ago Reb called him a mischevious punk. Today the guy is the most powerful man in Iraq. We still have an arrest warrant out for him btw.

Quote:Does anyone think think things will get better if we pull out? How? Why? Please don't start your answer with "At least...."

I think if we get out, then the civil war starts in earnest. People start dying in larger and larger numbers. Sort of like Darfur, where our absence has stopped nothing.

This is WHY YOU DON'T VOTE a marlboro chicken hawk into an office. The BEST ANSWER you don't want to hear. Throw the keys back over to Saddam! The way it is going right now. You just created a Shia cresent from Tehran to Damascus. Yeah Tehran, with Iraqi Oil assets. Thanks W!

Quote:Yes I do. And I believe all evidence points to that fact. How else do you explain us not being hit again?

We were suckered punched on 9-11. Pure and Simple. We didn't have our gaurd up. IMHO Iraq is making it much more likely that we will be hit again. We are enflaming an entire region with our prescence there. 80% of Iraqi's no longer want us there. 61% of Shia.... yes Shia thinks it's ok to attack and kill us. Yeah, Shia the ones who we supposedly liberated. Give Motaqada Al-Sadr back to Saddam. They deserve each other.


Guys when there was such a blood lust back in 2003, alot of the academics were being silenced. You have to govern the way Saddam did in this area. People keep confusing Al-Queada with the secetarian civil war. Hell, Al-Sadr and Al-Queada are at war with each other. We are playing referee to a triangle of interests. A military victory is no longer feasible or possible. The best case scenario for us. They all cripple each other.

Another thing...............

I CAN'T WAIT for the war profiteering investigations. The Black Water guy (Eric Prince you tube this jewel if ur interested in war profiteers), Halliburton and their ilk. I'm totally disguted by the no bid contracts. This **** needs to see the light of day. It will be a Tom Noe on a national scale. These mf'ers who put us into this **** and that's where we are knee deep in ****.

and another,....another thing


Niner your usually a bastion of intelligent thought from the right. A very effective and persuader of conservative ideals...............

but.....Who in the hell is the insurgency?????????????

For 300: They use Tehran Hizbollah influenced shape charged IED's that are camo'd as rocks. "Who are Shia Death Squads? Alex". CORRECT!

For 500 They kidnap from the university and drill holes in Sunni professors HEADS! They want a Talban style of government. "Who is Fire-Brand Cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr's henchman Alex"................ Correct

It's not Al-Queada who is causing our "MAIN" problems over there.

Quote:For 300: They use Tehran influenced shape charged IED's that are camo'd as rocks. "I'll say Shia Death Squads" Alex. CORRECT!

For 500 They kidnap from the university and drill holes in Sunni professors HEADS! They want a Talban style of government. "Fire-Brand Cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr's henchman" Alex................ Correct

Mach, you are supposed to answer in the form of a question.

I knew I was missing something.... I'll fix it.

Quote:IMHO Iraq is making it much more likely that we will be hit again. We are enflaming an entire region with our prescence there. 80% of Iraqi's no longer want us there. 61% of Shia.... yes Shia thinks it's ok to attack and kill us. Yeah, Shia the ones who we supposedly liberated. Give Motaqada Al-Sadr back to Saddam. They deserve each other.

The fact that we were hit on 9/11 leads me to disagree with this. They obviously didn't need us in Iraq to hit us on 9/11 since we weren't and they did. The region has been enflamed for decades. Us going into Iraq didn't suddenly cause it.

Quote:It's not Al-Queada who is causing our "MAIN" problems over there.

I would agree to an extent, however that is where Al Queda is engaging us. They understand what a free Iraq would mean to their ability to gain power therefore they are fighting us there. Bin Laden himself has called Iraq the central front. If we just up and leave there before the job is done Al Queda won't just stop. They'll simply follow us here.

Al-Quaeda is based on the Muslim faith as the KKK is based in Christianity. They both use their select scriptures to back up their points. The war in Iraq has been a boom for their recruitment. Don't ake my word for it. That's the intel that was leaked about a month ago. (Something the old Dogger always suspected though"

You know what's crazy abouit this is their are no "GOOD" answers anymore. Giving the keys back to Saddam may be our out.

Machiavelli Wrote:Al-Quaeda is based on the Muslim faith as the KKK is based in Christianity. They both use their select scriptures to back up their points. The war in Iraq has been a boom for their recruitment. Don't ake my word for it. That's the intel that was leaked about a month ago. (Something the old Dogger always suspected though"

You know what's crazy abouit this is their are no "GOOD" answers anymore. Giving the keys back to Saddam may be our out.

Soooooo, why is it again that you are against wiping them off the face of the Earth? Also, if you can't see the similarities and connections between Al Qaeda, Hizbollah, Hamas, Islami Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc., etc., they you are taking a very ignorant stand on the situation.

Machiavelli Wrote:Al-Quaeda is based on the Muslim faith as the KKK is based in Christianity.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but I would disagree very much with this characterization. They are not the same. Al-Queda are muslims, Wahabists to be specific. There is nothing christian about the KKK or what they stand for.

Quote:The war in Iraq has been a boom for their recruitment.

Going into Afghanistan was a boom for their recruitment as well. Contrary to some people's belief it doesn't take much for Al Queda to recruit. Had we never gone into Iraq they would still be recruiting in high numbers, and the decisions as to how this country should defend itself cannot be governed by the worry that our enemys won't like us for doing it.

Quote:You know what's crazy abouit this is their are no "GOOD" answers anymore. Giving the keys back to Saddam may be our out.

I agree, but the keys aren't going back to Saddam.

Your playing checkers when you should be at least thinking chess. Hamas and Hizbollah are two sides of a coin. They have REAL differences and an intelligent dialogue should try to play on these differences. Have you ever read any Friedman? From Beirut to Jurasalem? Lexus and the Olive Tree? They were required reading in a M.S. class of mine.

You paint with too broad of a brush.

Quote:I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but I would disagree very much with this characterization. They are not the same. Al-Queda are muslims, Wahabists to be specific. There is nothing christian about the KKK or what they stand for.

In one of those moonbat sites that I like to read someone used this comparison. I thought it was a good correlation. Some hate groups always use the bible to justify positions. Maybe we should ask endzone if he has ever been to some meeting for a little intel.

Machiavelli Wrote:Your playing checkers when you should be at least thinking chess. Hamas and Hizbollah are two sides of a coin. They have REAL differences and an intelligent dialogue should try to play on these differences. Have you ever read any Friedman? From Beirut to Jurasalem? Lexus and the Olive Tree? They were required reading in a M.S. class of mine.

You paint with too broad of a brush.

...and you're playing with Legos, when you should be playing with Lincoln Logs.

Israel has given in to the Palestinians over and over and over. What do they get in return? Bombed. Attacked. Kidnapped. Shelled. The Palestinian militants are no different than any other militant Muslim group. They want total control. They want you to submit to Islam, become subservient, or die. That's your three choices. Moderate Muslims? Well, I'll start taking THEM serious when they are major players. As of right now, they aren't and I'm not going to bet my freedom and security on what "could be".

Machiavelli Wrote:In one of those moonbat sites that I like to read someone used this comparison. I thought it was a good correlation. Some hate groups always use the bible to justify positions. Maybe we should ask endzone if he has ever been to some meeting for a little intel.

Hate groups that claim to be Christians-----ostracized by the majority of Christians

Hate groups that claim to be Muslims------ {crickets chirping}

The KKK was found based on principles in the Bible, but those principles are not Christian principles. Most of what they use is in the Old Testament. Most of the separatists principles that they use to justify their hate is undone in the New Testament.

Lincoln Logs and Legos are of the same complexity.... thereby rejecting your null hypothesis

I say leave at let Israel do as they please in that part of the world.

fsquid Wrote:I say leave at let Israel do as they please in that part of the world.

Then what? We pull back to our own confines? You do know that they WILL come after us here, don't you? Of course, with liberals in charge, we can't profile, can't listen in on their conversations, and must afford them the same rights as Grandma.

Liberals won't us to come back home, but they offer us no plan on protecting the country.