If we leave in the next three years? The cost to the U.S taxpayer by some estimates will be 2 trillion dollars. That is a staggering number. That is 7,000 dollars for every man, woman, and child living in America. 18,000 dollar liability to every tax payer. Think about that. We can't pay for it. So this just adds to the national debt.
At what price do we pay for an Iraqi's freedom. On another note, did anyone watch 60 minutes on the Baghdad ER. We spend millions of dollars on every soldier, (as WE SHOULD) but how long can we afford this. Iraqi insurgents pay pennies to our thousands. Can we play referee to a civil war? How much longer can we afford to stay the course in Iraq? 4 years, 5............ Just wanted to know how long some of you are willing to spend in Iraq. What if W's job takes ten years or longer to accomplish?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/
I do not know. I would like for us to able to find some way to stabilize Iraq before we leave, but I do not know how we can do it.
Machiavelli Wrote:If we leave in the next three years? The cost to the U.S taxpayer by some estimates will be 2 trillion dollars. That is a staggering number. That is 7,000 dollars for every man, woman, and child living in America. 18,000 dollar liability to every tax payer. Think about that. We can't pay for it. So this just adds to the national debt.
At what price do we pay for an Iraqi's freedom. On another note, did anyone watch 60 minutes on the Baghdad ER. We spend millions of dollars on every soldier, (as WE SHOULD) but how long can we afford this. Iraqi insurgents pay pennies to our thousands. Can we play referee to a civil war? How much longer can we afford to stay the course in Iraq? 4 years, 5............ Just wanted to know how long some of you are willing to spend in Iraq. What if W's job takes ten years or longer to accomplish?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11880954/
So it's all about money to you?
A free and secure America... priceless.
Ahhhhhh money to me.
I have been taken to account in the past because I wanted to share too much of my money with the govt. I was just wondering if you stay the coursers hold any limits to YOUR generousity of our grandkid's wealths.
Machiavelli Wrote:Ahhhhhh money to me.
I have been taken to account in the past because I wanted to share too much of my money with the govt. I was just wondering if you stay the coursers hold any limits to YOUR generousity of our grandkid's wealths.
Doing my best to hold on to my grandkid's wealth, but the Democrats want to take it all away from them in the form of estate taxes. I am guessing you think your grandkids will be just fine as long as the government can support them? I am taking care of my grandkids myself and not abdicating my responsibility.
Dogger, there is no reason that you and all the rest of the Democrats cannot share more of your money with the government. No one is stopping you, but yourselves. Just write them a bigger check. Stop using all those deductions, including the standard deduction. It's just a tax break for the rich. For Democrats, the formula should be Gross income X 50% = minimum taxes. No deductions.
John Kerry (I bet you voted for this tax dodger) paid $590,000 taxes on $5,000,000 of income. This comes to 11.8% - about the same percentage as a friend of mine who makes $33,000. John got there by using deductions and special tax treatments - all perfectly legal - but if that is not his "fair share', then all he had to do was write a bigger check. Same for you. Make your IRS check for whatever amount you deem fair - but don't choose to decide what is "fair" for everyone else.
The point is how long are you willing to stay the course? Would you say 50,000 dollars per tax payer is the ceiling? When we went into this they said 100 billion tops. We will probaly be 20 times that. If you were president, would you be as generous with our grandkid's debt as your beloved leader W?
Quote:That is 7,000 dollars for every man, woman, and child living in America. 18,000 dollar liability to every tax payer. Think about that. We can't pay for it. So this just adds to the national debt.
1. Every man, woman and child living in America don't pay taxes.
2. Every tax payer doesn't pay 18,000 dollars a year in taxes
3. Tax revenues are
up and the budget deficit is going
down. So clearly, we can pay for it.
American debt is around $8.4 trillion as compared to a GDP of over $13 trillion. Of the $8.4 trillion that the government owes, $3.5 trillion is intragovernmental debt -- or what the government owes to itself. The remaining $4.9 trillion, is owed to the public. That's about 38% of GDP, lower than post WWII, a war that was 100 times larger in scale and cost than than Iraq.
Feel free to read further.
http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2006...061626.htm
We are capable of financing Iraq for quite a while, though not indefinitely. But I don't believe we will need to. We will begin down sizing our troop presence there at some point, probably in the next 2 or 3 years would be my guess.
But Owl said it best, a free and safe America is priceless.
uhmump95 Wrote:I do not know. I would like for us to able to find some way to stabilize Iraq before we leave, but I do not know how we can do it.
I'm with you.
Maybe we have to accept it's an impossibility. If so then we seem to have the 3 options that we have seen in the recent past:
1. Let them do what they will. Downside: be prepared for periodic attacks.
2. Continue to occupy the nation, hope to build enough momentum that the nation stands on it's own and becomes peaceful. Downside: Didn't work well for the British empire, probably won't work now.
3. Get them preoccupied w/ a different enemy. Reagan worked on manipulating the Iran/Iraq war. Downside: Not very humanitarian. Tough to argue this is a valid "Christian" approach.
Speaking of Christians, there is much hope that evanagelism of this region may have a lasting impact for peace. However, this is well outside of the political realm.
I came up with the 7,000 dollar price tag by dividing 2 trillion by 300,000,000 people. 6,666 dollars a piece. That is our share. I think I would have liked our money spent elsewhere.
Do you still believe that Saddam harbored terrorists Niner? Now that you can see my posts. I believe on pg. 92 of the pre- War intelligence Assessments on Iraq (Republican Led btw) showed that Saddam had no working relationship with Al-Ansar Alam or Salmon Pak. Just another note on a long and distinguished list of things you have been wrong about. Oh Saddam tried to capture Al-Zarqawi too.
Machiavelli Wrote:The point is how long are you willing to stay the course? Would you say 50,000 dollars per tax payer is the ceiling? When we went into this they said 100 billion tops. We will probaly be 20 times that. If you were president, would you be as generous with our grandkid's debt as your beloved leader W?
For me, I am willing to stay the course as long as there is a reasonable possibility of success. The long term negatives of a pullout are too great. Of course, there two groups primarily who would like us to withdraw - the jihadists and the Democrats. Politics makes strange bedfellows, although these two are not as strange as most.
But the decision, if left to me, will not be made on money. I leave it to the Democrats and Dogger to put a dollars-and-cents price on liberty
Machiavelli Wrote:Do you still believe that Saddam harbored terrorists Niner? Now that you can see my posts. I believe on pg. 92 of the pre- War intelligence Assessments on Iraq (Republican Led btw) showed that Saddam had no working relationship with Al-Ansar Alam or Salmon Pak.
See, this is why I hope you stay away from sharp objects in your daily life.
I'll refer you back to the topic in question
here.
In it I argue that Bush didn't lie in his 2003 State of the Union. The accusation you put forth in your first post. As the discussion shows, you were wrong. You'll also note that
I'm the one that brought the Senate Pre-War Intelligence report into the discussion.
Now, take a gander at this January of
2006 article about Saddam training terrorists.
Article here
Then after that I will point you to the fact that for going on 2 decades Iraq was on the State Department's State Sponsor of Terrorism list. Let me break that down for you since I know you require it, that means Saddam helped terrorists. You don't get on that list by being a boy scout junior.
Quote:Just another note on a long and distinguished list of things you have been wrong about.
Doggy you've made a career out of being wrong on here (see the above thread) and everyone else have made a career of showing it. Hell Owl just :owned: you in his last post. You've been right to ignore it.
But since your number one item on my "list" has now been shown to be bunk, why don't you pull out number 2, or do you have to try and make that one up out of your imagination as well?
OptimisticOwl Wrote:Machiavelli Wrote:Ahhhhhh money to me.
I have been taken to account in the past because I wanted to share too much of my money with the govt. I was just wondering if you stay the coursers hold any limits to YOUR generousity of our grandkid's wealths.
Doing my best to hold on to my grandkid's wealth, but the Democrats want to take it all away from them in the form of estate taxes. I am guessing you think your grandkids will be just fine as long as the government can support them? I am taking care of my grandkids myself and not abdicating my responsibility.
Dogger, there is no reason that you and all the rest of the Democrats cannot share more of your money with the government. No one is stopping you, but yourselves. Just write them a bigger check. Stop using all those deductions, including the standard deduction. It's just a tax break for the rich. For Democrats, the formula should be Gross income X 50% = minimum taxes. No deductions.
John Kerry (I bet you voted for this tax dodger) paid $590,000 taxes on $5,000,000 of income. This comes to 11.8% - about the same percentage as a friend of mine who makes $33,000. John got there by using deductions and special tax treatments - all perfectly legal - but if that is not his "fair share', then all he had to do was write a bigger check. Same for you. Make your IRS check for whatever amount you deem fair - but don't choose to decide what is "fair" for everyone else.
No response.
That's not what I am talking about. Another time you tried to "the fair and balanced" argument that Sdaam was harboring terrorists. It's just funny that A Republican led commitee even said Al-Queada was a threat to Saddam and there was no connection. Something I told YOU in 2003.
You know I almost have pity on your lack of thoughfullness, but your sides day is coming. Just wait to see what we unearth in the next two years. Generations will look back on these last 6 years as the dark ages. You know it and I do too. Hopefully it will be enough to stigimatize elections in the foreseeable future. You just can't elect Republicans at the national level. They get us into **** like this, and it will take a good Democrat to get us out of the mess. See you Nov.8th. I have to go and grade some papers.
......... and hopefully influence some young minds with the evils of the Republican party I joke I joke................
Machiavelli Wrote:That's not what I am talking about. Another time you tried to "the fair and balanced" argument that Sdaam was harboring terrorists.
Of course you didn't read the link I posted above that showed the evidence that he did. Or that he was on the State Sponsor of terrorism list for nearly 2 decades. You know Doggy your ability to ignore anything and everything that shows you to be wrong shows me why it's such a frequent occurance. You never learn.
Quote:It's just funny that A Republican led commitee even said Al-Queada was a threat to Saddam and there was no connection.
What's funny is your total lack of ability, even to this day, to comprehend the argument. The only reason we know what we know about Iraq, much is still in dispute by the way, is because we invaded. What every investigation has shown, is that Bush never lied. That has been your claim ever since this thing started. And you're wrong. Shocking.
Quote:Something I told YOU in 2003.
Oh really?
Dogger's
first post in the Spin Room
Quote:Forum: The Spin Room Posted: 10 May 2004 09:11 am Subject: Policies vs. Politics
You know you can't even get a simple date right and yet you think you have the ability to discuss the complex foreign policy questions of our time. Hilarious. lmfao
Quote:You know I almost have pity on your lack of thoughfullness, but your sides day is coming. Just wait to see what we unearth in the next two years.
You've been proved wrong in every post you've made in this thread yet
I have a lack of thoughtfullness?
Quote:Generations will look back on these last 6 years as the dark ages. You know it and I do too.
And you knew it was coming folks, Doggy just went off the deep end again. lmfao
Dark ages huh? Yeah, 4.7% unemployment rate, the DOW at all time highs, GDP growing every quarter, inflation stable, interest rates low, wages up. What terrible times in the US of A.
Quote:I have to go and grade some papers.
......... and hopefully influence some young minds with the evils of the Republican party I joke I joke................
The fact that you are a teacher terrifies me to absolutely no end. 8-O
I really hope the papers you're grading are in something like art.
I think I have to put you back on my ignore list now. This going around in circles of you saying something stupid and wrong, me showing it to be stupid and wrong and then you ignoring it, while saying more things that are stupid and wrong is making me dizzy.
I'm beginning to see why this guy was banned in the first place. I enjoy intelligent discussion with people who represent a variety of viewpoints, but this guy? No way. Ranting is not discussion.
I also think it is frightening that he is allowed around children. And I think he is lying when he says "I joke'.
Quote:Oh really?
Dogger's first post in the Spin Room
Ohhhh gawd is this funny. My first post..... It says right on it post 765. Look!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 ohhhhhh you truly are hilarious. Your wrong so often it's pathetic!!!!! Can't argue your way out of that one!!!! 1st post..... what a maroon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On a side note. Read that line of discussion. Klutz Dio was a thinking man's thinker. The guy stimulated thought. The
DAY he was banned was the begining of the spiral down on the Spin Room. Oddball was great, but Klutz was an academic!
How many times do I have to tell you it's Biology!!! Yet you probably fall hook, line , and sinker for adult stem cells too. Don't like to listen to reason or common sense.
Quote: Ohhhh gawd is this funny. My first post..... It says right on it post 765. Look!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 ohhhhhh you truly are hilarious. Your wrong so often it's pathetic!!!!! Can't argue your way out of that one!!!! 1st post..... what a maroon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow. This is quite possibly the greatest gift I could ever have gotten. And to think I'd have missed it if I'd put you on ignore when I was last on here. Christmas has come early folks. lmfao
Do this for me Doggy. Search on Dogger, and check out every post that comes up. You know what you'll note? You'll note that
EVERY post says 765 on it genius. LOL!!!
Click
here and note the dates.
This is your profile - note the date.
Quote:Dogger
Special Team
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 765
Now, look at the top of the post Doggy and you'll see
Quote:Posted: 10 May 2004 09:11 am Post subject:
:owned:
I am literally crying I'm laughing so hard right now.
You da man Doggy!
You know what else is funny niner.... Tragic really............ I give you MSNBC. Newsweek, RESPECTED MEDIA! You give me World Net Daily articles!! With conservative T-Shirt sales and "Help Persecuted Christian" sites. Get out of your hole and start reading Time magazine. Click on a Huffington post every now and then. Broaden your horizons. I know you won't but YOU HAVE to one day look outside the pinhole and see this bright shining world of truth. Clean out the cob webs! Have at least some critical thought in your head. Put down the pom poms and take a critical look at your beloved W.
The fact that you would actually post again after what you just did to yourself it priceless!! lmfao lmfao lmfao
Niner my first posts were about alternative energies. Not this. I would like to research my first posts. I thought for sure they were about alternative fuels???? Did you read some of Klutz's work. He was an intelligent man.
If that wasn't my 765th post,,,, I stand corrected.
Niner,
I'm actually laughing right now too!!!! I should be grading papers instead of typing this!! I had a good laugh too!!!!!
but you really know how to get under my skin. There are times when I can't stand you, but tonight I swear you made me laugh.
Do you remember the time you e-mailed my school? I thought you had my address. I was going to call the police for a restraining order. Some crazy southerner with guns was out to get me. I joke I joke
I promise YOU this wasn't my first post though. THAT I can assure you.
So you really were wrong too. I do see that every one of them has 765 posts.
Machiavelli Wrote:I promise YOU this wasn't my first post though. THAT I can assure you.
So you really were wrong too. I do see that every one of them has 765 posts.
If your point is that you had other user names then fine. But I've only ever known you as Doggy, and his first post was May 10, 2004.
But you look for consolation where you can find it big guy.
Why would they shut this down. This is absolutely the most civil we have been to each other in a long time. Niner call it being punch drunk from grading tests and essays all night, but ( I can't believe I'm going to write this) you do form some good arguments. It's just you never take a look from the other side of the aisle. Call it whatever you want, but that's an olive branch from me.
I'm sorry about the war profiteering comments from the spring. I honestly know you didn't mean those comments literally.
I'm trying to research thoose posts. I've only posted as Dogger and Machiavelli. I started posting on here Urban Meyer's last year at BG. I thought for sure my first posts were about alt fuels, but maybe they were pre-spin room. We used to talk alot of politics in the MAC board and maybe I posted them over there. Did you read any of Klutz's lines??????
If you go up to search and enter in Dogger in the user name it will take you to a list of all your posts. The last page is at this url.
http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/ncaa/phpbb...&start=150
Go down to the last one on the page and that's your first post. At least as far back as the archive goes at least.
I don't remember any of Klutz's posts and I haven't read any. Seen him referenced a number of times though by the others.
Quote:Why would they shut this down. This is absolutely the most civil we have been to each other in a long time. Niner call it being punch drunk from grading tests and essays all night, but ( I can't believe I'm going to write this) you do form some good arguments. It's just you never take a look from the other side of the aisle. Call it whatever you want, but that's an olive branch from me.
Fair enough. I do my best to try and see the other side of arguments but I'm the first to admit my own views make it difficult to give them a fair evaluation. Probably true of most political discussions that go on. I don't think anyone is ever truly impartial when it comes to this stuff.
Quote:I'm sorry about the war profiteering comments from the spring. I honestly know you didn't mean thoose comments literally.
I appreciate that a great deal. I try never to get angry on here since it's just a messageboard but I did at that. And I apologize for my own comments in our subsequent exchanges. I can be a real ass sometimes. lmfao
Machiavelli Wrote:I'm trying to research thoose posts. I've only posted as Dogger and Machiavelli. I started posting on here Urban Meyer's last year at BG. I thought for sure my first posts were about alt fuels, but maybe they were pre-spin room. We used to talk alot of politics in the MAC board and maybe I posted them over there. Did you read any of Klutz's lines??????
if you're going to change your name, you ought to change your susceptibility to being dominated.
niner keeps parking you at the curb and stealing your sound system.
For the last time. My old computer crashed. I forgot my old password. The e-mail adress was no longer in use. I switched from adelphia to verizon. I couldn't get the Dogger to work. Machiavelli sounds better anyways. I started this as a MAC football subscriber and it morphed into only looking at the spin room. I just checked back on the MAC smack talk and nobody posts over there anymore. I know this won't last because I get too emotional when it comes to politics. Blah will be on here to insult me next. Are any left leaners left?? I'll try my best to behave and btw I have never been banned.
I always thought Reb and I got along OK. Surprised he thought I was banned.
Machiavelli Wrote:For the last time. My old computer crashed. I forgot my old password. The e-mail adress was no longer in use. I switched from adelphia to verizon. I couldn't get the Dogger to work. Machiavelli sounds better anyways. I started this as a MAC football subscriber and it morphed into only looking at the spin room. I just checked back on the MAC smack talk and nobody posts over there anymore. I know this won't last because I get too emotional when it comes to politics. Blah will be on here to insult me next. Are any left leaners left?? I'll try my best to behave and btw I have never been banned.
I always thought Reb and I got along OK. Surprised he thought I was banned.
you require sedatives.
