NCAAbbs

Easy question.

A logical follow up to the poll would be, why do you believe what you believe?


For me, I am a Biblical Literalist. I beleive the Bible is the Living Word of God. The Bible discusses them both, so I beleive they exist.

I've looked around at too many religions and noticed how similar they are to take the specific interpretation of only one as being correct.

Fanatical Wrote:I've looked around at too many religions and noticed how similar they are to take the specific interpretation of only one as being correct.

OK, but what do you believe and why?

Humanity has understood that it has a spirituality for centuries. The idea of heaven and hell comes from old Zoroastrian ideas from Persia of good vs evil. The idea of the afterlife is nearly universal to all cultures, but the exact specifics are debated. I believe the afterlife is what you make of it, be it a heaven or a hell.

Fanatical Wrote:Humanity has understood that it has a spirituality for centuries. The idea of heaven and hell comes from old Zoroastrian ideas from Persia of good vs evil. The idea of the afterlife is nearly universal to all cultures, but the exact specifics are debated. I believe the afterlife is what you make of it, be it a heaven or a hell.

Let me see if I have this straight....Each person, when they die will go to some place of their own design?

Basically, its a matter of understanding one's own conscience. That of course is no small feat. Its a lil eastern thought mixed in with western.

Fanatical Wrote:Basically, its a matter of understanding one's own conscience. That of course is no small feat. Its a lil eastern thought mixed in with western.

So, when I die, my conscience is going to whisk my soul off to some place of my own design. Would that make me God? I need to spend more time in thought about Chocolate factories then. I love chocolate.

GrayBeard Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:Basically, its a matter of understanding one's own conscience. That of course is no small feat. Its a lil eastern thought mixed in with western.

So, when I die, my conscience is going to whisk my soul off to some place of my own design. Would that make me God? I need to spend more time in thought about Chocolate factories then. I love chocolate.

GrayBeard,
Do you ever think that it is somewhat egotistical of mankind to think that God created this miracle that is the Universe, Earth and mankind only to use it as lab test to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell??

Humans have always obsessed with death and the after life. No matter what area of the Earth you study you will find rituals that deal with death and mythology that deals with the after life.

I believe that thinking about what it will be like is a waste of time. I don't know what it will be like or if it even exists. I prefer to live in the now and enjoy the time we have on this plane of existance, it may be our only one.

I'd hate to spend my whole vacation driving to disneyland thinking about how great it would be while I'm passing some other great places on the drive there only to find out that disneyland is closed, or even that it doesn't exist. Guess I should have stopped at Wall Drug after all.

If I could make my own heaven, I think I'd have a beer volcano.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:If I could make my own heaven, I think I'd have a beer volcano.

Volcano-temp beer? Blasphemy!

I also don't like to personify the idea of a conscience God. If it's supposed to be all powerful then after looking around this world and all the crap that's gone on that would make God a real prick. I'm not down with worshipping pricks.

GrayBeard Wrote:So, when I die, my conscience is going to whisk my soul off to some place of my own design. Would that make me God? I need to spend more time in thought about Chocolate factories then. I love chocolate.

I'll try to give an analogy that should be easily relatable. If someone does a horrible act and is given a death penalty, he or she can still be forgiven in Christianity if he or she truly believes that he or she is sorry, asks for forgiveness and does a pennance that is satisfactory for God. Of course we don't know if he or she is truly sorry, but as God would be all knowing, the person's true intentions (conscience perhaps?) would be known for an afterlife.

Fanatical Wrote:Humanity has understood that it has a spirituality for centuries. The idea of heaven and hell comes from old Zoroastrian ideas from Persia of good vs evil.

I think it's interesting that people want to put stock in Zoroaster, when there is hardly any documentation or archeological evidence even to prove he existed, then they'll blast the Bible stating it's all fables.

Reams of evidence can be provided to support the validity of the Bible, yet people will insist that it's been fabricated. Then Dan Brown throws out some fictional book, or people re-discover Zoaroaster, and suddenly that is sound scholarship.

Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

DrTorch Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:Humanity has understood that it has a spirituality for centuries. The idea of heaven and hell comes from old Zoroastrian ideas from Persia of good vs evil.

I think it's interesting that people want to put stock in Zoroaster, when there is hardly any documentation or archeological evidence even to prove he existed, then they'll blast the Bible stating it's all fables.

Reams of evidence can be provided to support the validity of the Bible, yet people will insist that it's been fabricated. Then Dan Brown throws out some fictional book, or people re-discover Zoaroaster, and suddenly that is sound scholarship.

Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

You could make the same argument against Christianity. I have not seen the reams of evidence that support the validity of the Bible. I do find it strange that you can go down the list of famous writers who lived during the time of Jesus or within a century after the time of Jesus from Josephus, Arrian, Damis, Jermogones, Lysias, Lucian, Plutarch, Pausanias, Tacitus, Seneca etc. etc.. etc... and none of these writers printed one word about Jesus.
Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era and lived until longer after the death of Jesus. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have lived. Philo was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ's miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occured. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifiixion and its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and ressurection of the dead took place and when Christ himself rose from the dead in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. Philo wrote of none of these happenings.
Josephus a renowned Jesus historian and native of Judea was born in 37 A.D. and was a contemporary of the Apostles. He was Governor of Gaililee and traversed every part of the holy land. He resided in Cana the sight of Jesus first miracle. Josephus writes of every major event which occured during these times yet does not write one line concerning Jesus.

ShoreBuc Wrote:GrayBeard,
Do you ever think that it is somewhat egotistical of mankind to think that God created this miracle that is the Universe, Earth and mankind only to use it as lab test to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell??

I think you should read the first few chapters of Genesis, and then you would find that was not the reason that God created man. Yes, it is a miracle.








On another note...Does it take more faith to believe the universe just happened by chance than it does to beleive something much greater than ourselves created it?

I think it takes the most faith that Jewish folklore describes creation. When there is no reason or data to show that it happened, one HAS to have faith to believe it did.

Fanatical Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

Noah and the flood is interesting. In Gen 6:19 God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of bird and every kind of animal yet in Gen 7:2-3 God instructs Noah to take seven pairs of birds and seven pairs of clean animals..which is it??
In Gen 7:12, 8:6 10a, 12a the flood last 54 days 40+7+7 In Gen 7:11, 8:13 14-16a the flood last the equivalent of a solar year.
God says in Gen 20-22 that Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. As long as the Earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
So there you go from the word of God he will not destroy mankind and the creatures of this planet ever again. So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

ShoreBuc Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

Noah and the flood is interesting. In Gen 6:19 God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of bird and every kind of animal yet in Gen 7:2-3 God instructs Noah to take seven pairs of birds and seven pairs of clean animals..which is it??
In Gen 7:12, 8:6 10a, 12a the flood last 54 days 40+7+7 In Gen 7:11, 8:13 14-16a the flood last the equivalent of a solar year.
God says in Gen 20-22 that Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. As long as the Earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
So there you go from the word of God he will not destroy mankind and the creatures of this planet ever again. So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

What are those apocolyptic theories that you speak of? As far as "The Flood" stuff, I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I may have to get back to you.

ShoreBuc Wrote:So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

I saw a little Nat Geographic special on the Gospel of Judas, which has recently been translated. They had a little re-enactment where Jesus came in on the apostles as they were doing a sabbath celebration and JC laughed at them. They asked why he would laugh and Jesus said that they were worshipping the old God of the Old Testement, this is not the God which Jesus came to Earth to spread the word of. They didn't go any more into it unfortunately.

Weeird :shhh: maybe God changed?

GrayBeard Wrote:

ShoreBuc Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

Noah and the flood is interesting. In Gen 6:19 God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of bird and every kind of animal yet in Gen 7:2-3 God instructs Noah to take seven pairs of birds and seven pairs of clean animals..which is it??
In Gen 7:12, 8:6 10a, 12a the flood last 54 days 40+7+7 In Gen 7:11, 8:13 14-16a the flood last the equivalent of a solar year.
God says in Gen 20-22 that Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. As long as the Earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
So there you go from the word of God he will not destroy mankind and the creatures of this planet ever again. So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

What are those apocolyptic theories that you speak of? As far as "The Flood" stuff, I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I may have to get back to you.

Revelations The Seven Bowls of Gods Wrath. The first angel went and poured out his bowl on land and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea and it turned into blood like that of a dead man and every living thing in the sea died. It goes on and on about brutal killings and torture. Not exactly stuff you want to throw into Sunday school teaching.
Does this not contradict what God said in Genesis??

ShoreBuc Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

ShoreBuc Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

Noah and the flood is interesting. In Gen 6:19 God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of bird and every kind of animal yet in Gen 7:2-3 God instructs Noah to take seven pairs of birds and seven pairs of clean animals..which is it??
In Gen 7:12, 8:6 10a, 12a the flood last 54 days 40+7+7 In Gen 7:11, 8:13 14-16a the flood last the equivalent of a solar year.
God says in Gen 20-22 that Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. As long as the Earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
So there you go from the word of God he will not destroy mankind and the creatures of this planet ever again. So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

What are those apocolyptic theories that you speak of? As far as "The Flood" stuff, I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I may have to get back to you.

Revelations The Seven Bowls of Gods Wrath. The first angel went and poured out his bowl on land and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea and it turned into blood like that of a dead man and every living thing in the sea died. It goes on and on about brutal killings and torture. Not exactly stuff you want to throw into Sunday school teaching.
Does this not contradict what God said in Genesis??

No it doesn't because He will not destroy the entire Earth and will not destroy all of humanity. Then, the New Jerusalem will descend to the Earth.

GrayBeard Wrote:

ShoreBuc Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

ShoreBuc Wrote:

Fanatical Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Even if Zoroaster did exist, why should his ideas be considered the basis for Judeo-Christianity? Why not understand that the basis for his teachings come from Judeo-Christianity?

Probably because he is thought to have preached before the Torah was written. And the Jews did incorporate other Persian ideas, such as Noah and the flood.

Noah and the flood is interesting. In Gen 6:19 God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of bird and every kind of animal yet in Gen 7:2-3 God instructs Noah to take seven pairs of birds and seven pairs of clean animals..which is it??
In Gen 7:12, 8:6 10a, 12a the flood last 54 days 40+7+7 In Gen 7:11, 8:13 14-16a the flood last the equivalent of a solar year.
God says in Gen 20-22 that Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done. As long as the Earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease.
So there you go from the word of God he will not destroy mankind and the creatures of this planet ever again. So the apocolyptic theories of the end of days must be wrong or God changed his mind.

What are those apocolyptic theories that you speak of? As far as "The Flood" stuff, I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I may have to get back to you.

Revelations The Seven Bowls of Gods Wrath. The first angel went and poured out his bowl on land and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea and it turned into blood like that of a dead man and every living thing in the sea died. It goes on and on about brutal killings and torture. Not exactly stuff you want to throw into Sunday school teaching.
Does this not contradict what God said in Genesis??

No it doesn't because He will not destroy the entire Earth and will not destroy all of humanity. Then, the New Jerusalem will descend to the Earth.

If God created man in his likeness and we spread all over the planet then why did he choose the Jews of Canaan as his chossen people?? And if they are in fact the choosen people of God where does that leave the rest of mankind??
Is a child born in Asia less precious to God then one born in Israel??
Why would God who rules over the entire universe need to have Jerusalem as the seat of his power?? That seems all to human to have a kingdom here on Earth. Why not another planet?? There are billions to choose from.

ShoreBuc Wrote:If God created man in his likeness and we spread all over the planet then why did he choose the Jews of Canaan as his chossen people?? And if they are in fact the choosen people of God where does that leave the rest of mankind??
Is a child born in Asia less precious to God then one born in Israel??
Why would God who rules over the entire universe need to have Jerusalem as the seat of his power?? That seems all to human to have a kingdom here on Earth. Why not another planet?? There are billions to choose from.

More questions that could be answered by reading Genesis. The Jews are God's Chosen because of Abraham.

Jesus died for all mankind becuase all are precious in his sight.

GrayBeard Wrote:A logical follow up to the poll would be, why do you believe what you believe?


For me, I am a Biblical Literalist. I beleive the Bible is the Living Word of God. The Bible discusses them both, so I beleive they exist.

For me the real question is WHY do you or anyone else believe in the Bible?

why do you believe it is the word of God?
Why do you believe it is complete, nothing added, not omitted?
Why do you believe in this translation, as opposed to that one or another?

Let's skip this part, as I know the answer - you choose to believe the Bible because you choose to have faith that it is the true, complete and perfect word of God.

Since this belief is a choice you make, why did you choose to believe in the Bible instead of the Q'ran? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Book of Mormon?


The basic answer here is you believe what you believe because you choose to believe it. And that is the only answer anybody can give.

Quote:I think you should read the first few chapters of Genesis

Quote:More questions that could be answered by reading Genesis.

Come on guys, it is obvious that GB want you all to find those answers in Genesis.

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:A logical follow up to the poll would be, why do you believe what you believe?


For me, I am a Biblical Literalist. I beleive the Bible is the Living Word of God. The Bible discusses them both, so I beleive they exist.

For me the real question is WHY do you or anyone else believe in the Bible?

why do you believe it is the word of God?
Why do you believe it is complete, nothing added, not omitted?
Why do you believe in this translation, as opposed to that one or another?

Let's skip this part, as I know the answer - you choose to believe the Bible because you choose to have faith that it is the true, complete and perfect word of God.

Since this belief is a choice you make, why did you choose to believe in the Bible instead of the Q'ran? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Book of Mormon?


The basic answer here is you believe what you believe because you choose to believe it. And that is the only answer anybody can give.

I can't understand how any educated person could not see that the OT is not the word of God. There are some pretty screwed up things in the OT and it is the obvious ancient laws of a barbaric culture and does not even jive with the God of the NT.
Some of my favorite Mosaic Laws
1 If a man is discovered raping a virgin who is not betrothed, he must buy her for his wife.
2 If a man have a stubborn son, then shall his father and his mother bring him unto the gate and all the men of the city shall stone him that he die.
3 A priest may buy a slave
4 After engaging in a sex act both partners are unclean until evening. They must bathe...so much for the noooner.
5 If a man has intercourse with a menstruating woman, he is unclean for seven days and so is the bed.
6 A girl not a virgin when she marries shall be stoned at her fathers door...ready aim fire at most the women getting married today.
7 A man may divorce his wife with a written notice to her...nice thought but now we live in the 50-50 days.
8 If a man kills his slave by striking him, he shall be punished, but if the slave doesent die at once, there shall be no punishement for he is his money...Abraham Lincoln must be in Hell
9 A man must be the sexual partner of his brothers widow, if his brother left no heir.
10 If a man is discovered raping a virgin who is not betrothed, he must buy her for his wife...pretty tough clause for the rapist out there.

What I have discovered about the Bible in the last year of reading is that most of America is Biblicaly illeterate. How anybody can read these laws and think they are the infallable word of God is beyond me.

ShoreBuc Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:A logical follow up to the poll would be, why do you believe what you believe?


For me, I am a Biblical Literalist. I beleive the Bible is the Living Word of God. The Bible discusses them both, so I beleive they exist.

For me the real question is WHY do you or anyone else believe in the Bible?

why do you believe it is the word of God?
Why do you believe it is complete, nothing added, not omitted?
Why do you believe in this translation, as opposed to that one or another?

Let's skip this part, as I know the answer - you choose to believe the Bible because you choose to have faith that it is the true, complete and perfect word of God.

Since this belief is a choice you make, why did you choose to believe in the Bible instead of the Q'ran? Or the teachings of Buddha? Or the Book of Mormon?


The basic answer here is you believe what you believe because you choose to believe it. And that is the only answer anybody can give.

I can't understand how any educated person could not see that the OT is not the word of God. There are some pretty screwed up things in the OT and it is the obvious ancient laws of a barbaric culture and does not even jive with the God of the NT.
Some of my favorite Mosaic Laws
1 If a man is discovered raping a virgin who is not betrothed, he must buy her for his wife.
2 If a man have a stubborn son, then shall his father and his mother bring him unto the gate and all the men of the city shall stone him that he die.
3 A priest may buy a slave
4 After engaging in a sex act both partners are unclean until evening. They must bathe...so much for the noooner.
5 If a man has intercourse with a menstruating woman, he is unclean for seven days and so is the bed.
6 A girl not a virgin when she marries shall be stoned at her fathers door...ready aim fire at most the women getting married today.
7 A man may divorce his wife with a written notice to her...nice thought but now we live in the 50-50 days.
8 If a man kills his slave by striking him, he shall be punished, but if the slave doesent die at once, there shall be no punishement for he is his money...Abraham Lincoln must be in Hell
9 A man must be the sexual partner of his brothers widow, if his brother left no heir.
10 If a man is discovered raping a virgin who is not betrothed, he must buy her for his wife...pretty tough clause for the rapist out there.

What I have discovered about the Bible in the last year of reading is that most of America is Biblicaly illeterate. How anybody can read these laws and think they are the infallable word of God is beyond me.

In the church of my childhood it was taught that the NT replaced the OT laws anyplace they were in conflict.

But my questions stand, whetehr for the Bible as a whole or for the NT only.