NCAAbbs

or perhaps better, the references cited?

Wish I had this available when Milennium Falcon (a public school teacher, and usually good guy) was decrying others as "Nazis".

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

I think a lot of what he says is all too true.

My mom and sister are both public school teachers, both find ways to keep their classes interesting (I've sat in on them). My mom is a high school psychology and US history teacher, my sister is an elementary art teacher.

They have found with no child left behind they are much more restrained now than they ever were before (this guy has no idea how bad it is now). They now teach to a standardized test for 8 months of the year, thus giving them only a month after all tests are done (tests are taken in early May) to do the things the kids really enjoy (the fun projects and the teaching of things that aren't on the test).

In the past kids learned a lot more, IMHO, because teachers could break up some of the boring stuff (learning of mundane details) with some of the fun projects... now there isn't enough time in the school year to do that with all the other stuff that has to be taught over and over to be sure that they pass these stupid tests.

mlb Wrote:My mom and sister are both public school teachers, both find ways to keep their classes interesting (I've sat in on them). My mom is a high school psychology and US history teacher, my sister is an elementary art teacher.

They have found with no child left behind they are much more restrained now than they ever were before (this guy has no idea how bad it is now). They now teach to a standardized test for 8 months of the year, thus giving them only a month after all tests are done (tests are taken in early May) to do the things the kids really enjoy (the fun projects and the teaching of things that aren't on the test).

In the past kids learned a lot more, IMHO, because teachers could break up some of the boring stuff (learning of mundane details) with some of the fun projects... now there isn't enough time in the school year to do that with all the other stuff that has to be taught over and over to be sure that they pass these stupid tests.

Yeah, everything was peachy until NCLB.

DrTorch Wrote:Yeah, everything was peachy until NCLB.

Maybe you should reread my post.

Quote:They have found with no child left behind they are much more restrained now than they ever were before

Nowhere does that state that it was peachy before hand. It just says things are 10x worse now than it was before, plain and simple.

Some of it may be true, but he gets a bit alarmist in there. He's implying that homeschooling is the only system that could produce people like Ben Franklin. However looking at some of the statistics it seems to show that Private Independant Schools seem to trump Homeschoolers at least in SAT scores (See Table 3).

I'll agree that people are way too sheep-like when it comes to government and just falling in line, however I don't think that a few articles and books written 90 years ago are really what is being taught to today's educators. I guess I'd need some evidence that those are being used to day, otherwise this rant comes off as a conspiracy theory.

Let's not forget that the Amish school shooter was homeschooled. Not every homeschooler is a Ben Franklin.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Some of it may be true, but he gets a bit alarmist in there. He's implying that homeschooling is the only system that could produce people like Ben Franklin.

I don't think that implication follows necessarily. I got the impression that he was talking to the pubic school fascists who insist that you MUST go to their schools, or you'll be cursed forever to be an imbecile.

Indeed, I have found that many people, not just educators, do react this way, almost instinctively when you suggest alternatives to public schools (or even alternatives IN public schools).

Feel free to do your own tests on this. As one experiment, try any local forum board in the country, and start asking innocuous questions like:

Should homeschoolers have to take standardized tests like public schoolers?

Do kids get enough recess in public schools?

Should private schoolers/parochial schoolers/homeschoolers be allowed to use the tax dollars they pay out?

Should homeschoolers have access to the extracurricular activities sponsored by their local school districts?

Would vouchers help improve public schools?

If both girls and boys wanted same-sex classes, and research showed it helped both get better grades, would you support it in your school?

See what the response is.

Quote:However looking at some of the statistics it seems to show that Private Independant Schools seem to trump Homeschoolers at least in SAT scores (See Table 3).

I don't think he'd argue that. Rather, the idea is that alternatives to public schools exist not just for those who can afford Private Independent Schools.

Quote:I'll agree that people are way too sheep-like when it comes to government and just falling in line, however I don't think that a few articles and books written 90 years ago are really what is being taught to today's educators. I guess I'd need some evidence that those are being used to day, otherwise this rant comes off as a conspiracy theory.

I doubt it's this explicit. Most people don't go into teaching w/ a desire to break the spirits of children. Rather, it's presented as a way to help people, despite the empirical evidence to the contrary that teachers see every day.

Ok, that sounds tenable.

The article still sounds a bit alarmist to me.

A few points form the perspective of a future parent.
-People need to be involved with the education of their children. Don't just send them off to school.
-The other day, a coworker was telling me about how he son (a first grader) came home with a math assignment in which he was instructed to use a calculator for problems like 1+0. I suppose I can understand that they are teaching children to use calculators, but at such a young age it seems that all they are doing is crippling the child. Calculators have to be one of the biggest problems in math education today.
-How do two parents who both love their jobs (and are not educators) home school their children? My wife and I would both admit that we are not teacher material, nor would we want to be, plus we both enjoy our jobs. We both feel that we would be more productive members of society in our current positions than in a teaching role.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Ok, that sounds tenable.

The article still sounds a bit alarmist to me.

I think you're right.

Quote:A few points form the perspective of a future parent.

-The other day, a coworker was telling me about how he son (a first grader) came home with a math assignment in which he was instructed to use a calculator for problems like 1+0. I suppose I can understand that they are teaching children to use calculators, but at such a young age it seems that all they are doing is crippling the child. Calculators have to be one of the biggest problems in math education today.

Just read a story that was almost verbatim of this, 5 minutes ago on the Lima News forum. Except it was a 3rd grader. I'd agree w/ you, calculators are a huge problem, if this is how they go about it.

Quote:-How do two parents who both love their jobs (and are not educators) home school their children? My wife and I would both admit that we are not teacher material, nor would we want to be, plus we both enjoy our jobs. We both feel that we would be more productive members of society in our current positions than in a teaching role.

I don't have an answer for that. Nor would I criticize anyone who doesn't homeschool. I do say that public schools need a radical makeover, a makeover that is fervently avoided by TPTB in eduation.

DrTorch Wrote:Feel free to do your own tests on this. As one experiment, try any local forum board in the country, and start asking innocuous questions like:

Should homeschoolers have to take standardized tests like public schoolers?

Do kids get enough recess in public schools?

Should private schoolers/parochial schoolers/homeschoolers be allowed to use the tax dollars they pay out?

Should homeschoolers have access to the extracurricular activities sponsored by their local school districts?

Would vouchers help improve public schools?

If both girls and boys wanted same-sex classes, and research showed it helped both get better grades, would you support it in your school?

I will give my answers to your questions in order asked.

Yes. If standardized test are going to be the method used to measure the success and failure of public education institutions, then they should be used to measure alternatice educaton institutions as well.

No!! No explanation needed.

No. It is a parent's choice to forgo public education that they already pay for with their taxes and take on the added expense of a private institution. We have the police, but if a citizen decides to pay for his own personal security team, should he get tax payers money to pay for his security team?

Yes. I would go even farther and say that even if a parent sends their child to a private school, they should still be able to sign their child up extra curricular activities paid for by their tax dollars.

IMO no.

I would really want to study the reasearch and make sure everything was truly equal, but I guess I would say yes.

This is just my opnion, which is probably not worth the time it took me to type it.

Here is a question for you.

If we start giving vouchers for private schools, should private schools have accept any student whose family can afford the tuition.

DrTorch Wrote:Should homeschoolers have to take standardized tests like public schoolers?

Do kids get enough recess in public schools?

Should private schoolers/parochial schoolers/homeschoolers be allowed to use the tax dollars they pay out?

Should homeschoolers have access to the extracurricular activities sponsored by their local school districts?

Would vouchers help improve public schools?

If both girls and boys wanted same-sex classes, and research showed it helped both get better grades, would you support it in your school?

1. Yes, if they want to partipate in the extracurricular activities, no otherwise. The public school kids have to meet standards of eligibility to participate, it would be unfair for the homeschool kids not to. I would like to point out that the homeschool kids are already taking standardized tests in the GED, SAT, and ACT.

2. Probably not, but I have no idea how much they get and how much they should get.

3. yes

4. As long as they meet the eligibility requirements and follow the same rules. I want to prevent abuses like being sure the 6'9" is eligible by calling him homeschooled when all he does all day is sit at home and play video games.

5. Yes.

6. Yes.

Why is it we get a three page thread about Graybeard not allowing his kids to read Harry Potter books, but when a good discussion about public education starts, the posters get quiet?

This is the good stuff....

Besides no one answered my question about vouchers...