NCAAbbs - JWill is an example of how our society assigns the label "gr

I'm not saying he's not a good player; he is. However, he has repeatedly come up short in big moments. He was a complete non-factor in last year's final. He lost 3 games this year from the charity stripe. He doesn't play defense. He is supposedly the best PG in the country besides jason kidd, but has a 1.4/1 turonver to assist ratio. Not even to mention, he was all but named POY before the year started.

Please discuss.

[ March 21, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: apocalypse dude ]

yet... I have to say that most of us would kill for just a percentage of his talent...

and PLEASE dont blame the three loses on JWill... those losses were definitely a TEAM effort-- you can't take a 40 minute game and reduce it to last minute free throw-- granted-- we could have used those points-- but REALLY, we shouldn't have NEEDED them...you know???

Apocalypse Dude, please read quote below.

Hey, I said he's a good player. Maybe he's a victim of his own success. Even if he hit all these free throws,he still would not be as good as he was hyped to be. There is no way. I mean no way he is the 2nd best point guard in the world. Frankly the concept is ludicrous. He was bestowed greatness before he earned it. That's all.

And might I add, I resent that fact that I should be thought a fool for voicing my opinion. Is that not what these message boards are for? If I were you I'd take a good look in the mirror.

Here are Jason's final stats in his 3 year career at Duke:

2081 points
395 rebounds
644 assists
235 steals
14 blocks

Only David Thompson, Len Chappel, and Dennis Scott finished with more points after their first 3 years in the league. No player who only played 3 years in the league has more assists, and only Ed Cota, Bobby Hurley, Chris Corchiani, and Steve Blake had more assists after 3 years of play(The first 3 are the top 3 assists men in NCAA history, and Blake is likely to join them in the top 4). He will also finish with the most steals of any player only to play 3 years, with only Juan Dixon and Johnny Rhodes having more steals in their first 3 years. In those three categories, he finishes tied for 22nd in scoring alltime, 17th in assists alltime, and 13th in steals alltime.

Projections, had he played a senior year, just based on his averages per year(which would obviously be lower than his potential 4th season totals) would have him finishing 1st alltime in scoring, 4th in assists, and 4th in steals.

Just a little perspective for the discussion.

You can call a player great when he does things like Jason did. Not just great numbers, but good things out of the ordinary.

10 point comeback against MD
single handily bringing Duke back into it against UK
nearly brining Duke back into it against UVA, FSU
scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team.

Things like that are why you are called great.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nate jonesacc:

10 point comeback against MD
single handily bringing Duke back into it against UK
nearly brining Duke back into it against UVA, FSU
scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team.

Things like that are why you are called great.<hr /></blockquote>Let's address these four items....

10 point comeback...i was there, what he did was indeed spectacular, BUT if Steve Blake is in the game...right

Kentucky Game...no doubt, one of the greatest individual performances of this season

UVA & FSU games...I don't know what you were watching dookie, but he missed the FT's in the FSU game, and how can you say he brought them back against UVA....wasn't Duke dominating that game mid way through the 2nd half...right

Scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team...a great performance, but has been done before.

JW will indeed go down as one of the best to play in the ACC, but "greatness"...no way.

Greatness is David Thompson, Len Bias, etc...

[ March 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: DamascusTerp2 ]

The loss at FSU was completely JWillys fault if he had made one of the six free throws Duke would have won. In the UVA he did a great job trying to get them the win after UVA came back but he again missed free throws in a situation that could have won the game for UVA. Against Indiana he missed the game tying free throw. He had one of the worse games of the year against Maryland. My point is he means so much to that team and despite all the other great talent when he doesnt play well they lose. Yes, he was great in the win over Kentucky and the first game against Maryland. As for you talking about the gone in 54 seconds thing, how is that relevant to POY for this season?

oops sorry I guess this thread wasnt about POY but oh well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Terpy:
The loss at FSU was completely JWillys fault if he had made one of the six free throws Duke would have won. In the UVA he did a great job trying to get them the win after UVA came back but he again missed free throws in a situation that could have won the game for UVA. Against Indiana he missed the game tying free throw. He had one of the worse games of the year against Maryland. My point is he means so much to that team and despite all the other great talent when he doesnt play well they lose. Yes, he was great in the win over Kentucky and the first game against Maryland. As for you talking about the gone in 54 seconds thing, how is that relevant to POY for this season?<hr /></blockquote>I have to go with ApocDude and Terpy on this one...Jason got lots of recognition, but he couldn't take his team to the championship...if Dixon does, then Dixon deserves it, if Gooden does, then he deserves it...

Last Year, Battier was a big part of Duke's success, and I personally think they couldn't of won the championship without him... so all the sports writers say, OK, Who's next to step up and win it for them? Next in line was JWill, but JWill didn't lead his team like Battier did...Battier showed his emotions, scraped, took charges, but best of all, a leader. Williams, ball hogged, got lucky, got lucky, and got lucky again...

JWill does NOT deserve the POY, and did NOT deserve all the recognition...

Personally, I think Dixon is better than JWill... Its just the Duke tradition is why JWill got so much recognition...

Next Year, it'll be Duhon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

You have to be kidding, Terpy. Jason was the sole reason Duke even HAD A CHANCE against FSU. Plus, you say if he had hit 2 of those FTs, Duke would have won? The future changes according to the past, just to let you know.

Do you realize that dook lost because he missed 6 free throws at the end of the game? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Would Duke ever be in the position to possibly win the game if it wasn't for Jason Williams? NO!

He also didn't miss all 6 of those late. He only missed 3, maybe 4 of them, late in the game.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by techfan4:
I have to go with ApocDude and Terpy on this one...Jason got lots of recognition, but he couldn't take his team to the championship...if Dixon does, then Dixon deserves it, if Gooden does, then he deserves it...

Last Year, Battier was a big part of Duke's success, and I personally think they couldn't of won the championship without him... so all the sports writers say, OK, Who's next to step up and win it for them? Next in line was JWill, but JWill didn't lead his team like Battier did...Battier showed his emotions, scraped, took charges, but best of all, a leader. Williams, ball hogged, got lucky, got lucky, and got lucky again...

JWill does NOT deserve the POY, and did NOT deserve all the recognition...

Personally, I think Dixon is better than JWill... Its just the Duke tradition is why JWill got so much recognition...

Next Year, it'll be Duhon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>and I forgot to put, that first it was McCloed, Carrawell, Brand, Avery, Battier, Williams, and soon to be Duhon...yeah thats a great list of players, but none except Battier were Dominant

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>also interesting considering juan dixon has never won the acc title, been national player of the year, or won a national title. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Eh, interesting retort considering this thread has nothing to do with Juan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Oh, by the way. Juan is on his way to the final 4. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />

Until Maryland wins the NCAA championship this year, Juan will not have a better track record, or at least as good of one, as Jason.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
Oh, by the way. Juan is on his way to the final 4. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>oh btw, jason has already been there and won that too <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Ya, you're right. That was Battier's team, no?

That was Jason's team as much as this is Juan's team. Neither are/were vocal, but they both had a great role in leading by example.

um no. This was Jwill's team. Sweet 16. Nothing to be ashamed of.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>also interesting considering juan dixon has never won the acc title, been national player of the year, or won a national title. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Eh, interesting retort considering this thread has nothing to do with Juan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>i know you're working with limited intellect here but go back and read your response to mine. you said jwill has never won the acc poy award, meaning dixon has. i pointed out the things dixon hasnt won and never will win. understand?<hr /></blockquote>Speaking of limited intellect. This thread is about J Will, not Juan.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nate jonesacc:
That was Jason's team as much as this is Juan's team. Neither are/were vocal, but they both had a great role in leading by example.<hr /></blockquote>Are you kidding? Calling last years team JWilly's team is like calling this years team Blakes team. Last years Dook team was Battier's team and this years Maryland team is Dixons team its not even a question.

Terpy,
Last year was mostly Shane's team, but Jason was the leader by example. This year's MD team is a combo of Baxter and Dixon, just like last year was a combo of Battier and JWill.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.<hr /></blockquote>Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>also interesting considering juan dixon has never won the acc title, been national player of the year, or won a national title. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Eh, interesting retort considering this thread has nothing to do with Juan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>i know you're working with limited intellect here but go back and read your response to mine. you said jwill has never won the acc poy award, meaning dixon has. i pointed out the things dixon hasnt won and never will win. understand?<hr /></blockquote>Speaking of limited intellect. This thread is about J Will, not Juan.<hr /></blockquote>when you brought up dixon's acc poy award it brought the poor fella into the mix. how many times must i stoop to your level of intelligence? i dont wanna catch anything.<hr /></blockquote>Ok. Please point out where I brought up dixon. I simply made a statement of fact. JWill never won the ACC POY. Is this correct or not? Is Juan Dixon part of that sentance? I've scanned that sentance time and time again and cannot find the word "Juan", or the word "Dixon". WTF is the confusion?!?!

that was not my intent. Statement of fact. Here's another: You are a Moron.

almost forgot <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />

Ok Big Case. Let's review the points you've made in this thread.

You're first point being that Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history. If you seriously believe this you are one of the following:

A) 14 years old
B) Don't know anything about basketball
C) A Moron
D) A duke fan blinded by the current pro-duke media hype
E) All of the above

Your next point was that Juan never won a national title. Of course, my statement never said a thing about Juan. You simply could not accept this and took shots at my intellect.

I've made my points on this subject & you haven't had one intelligent thing to say. Thus, I came to a logical conclusion. I don't consider it name calling. I hope I never have to suffer through one of your lame posts again. Frankly, reading your posts has been the most blatant waste of time I've ever been a part of.

Go away duke bot!

I didn't claim the fact that he did not win the ACC POY award was a big secret. I simply stated that its amazing that the best guard in ACC history never won a POY award. I mean he must suffer from some bad publicity not to win that award <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

I never got upset. Never got "my panties in a wad" as you have so eloquently put it. I simply stated that the thread had nothing to do with Juan when you brought up a host of awards he hasn't won.

Here's a list off the top of my head. I'm sure I am forgetting some greats.

BTW: I'm not a statistics guru. I'm not a firm beleiver in statistics as the end all in player evaluation. Even in baseball, the game that is most easily broken down into statistics, you cannot compare guys from different era's, positions, intangibles, etc.

I might also mention that turnovers never seem to get mentioned in these discussions about guards. They are a very pertinent stat when talking about guards who consider themselves Point guards, imho. But please, feel free to break all these guys down w/ talk about statistics. Have fun!

Bobby Hurley
Michael Jordan
Chris Corciani
Kenney Smith
Phil Ford
John Lucas
Johnny Dawkins
Juan Dixon
Mark Price
Kenny Anderson

apoc, the only 2 in that list who you could argue where better than JWill is now are Phil Ford and Bobby Hurley.

Hey Nate, I know you are young, so you could not have seen John Lucas play. I would certainly compare the two. They both had the ability to take over a game.
Enjoying your spring break?? Have a good one.

I would like to see Randolph Childress added to that list. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rickheel:
Hey Nate, I know you are young, so you could not have seen John Lucas play. I would certainly compare the two. They both had the ability to take over a game.
Enjoying your spring break?? Have a good one.<hr /></blockquote>Not yet, spring break starts Thursday afternoon. Right now, I'm recovering from the flu.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

I've heard a lot about John Lucas, and I agree that I can't make a fair judgment about him. Yet, I've seen him on ESPN Classic once or twice, and he did look pretty good. He didn't have the JWill aura about him, though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Liquid Karma:
I would like to see Randolph Childress added to that list. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Who's next, Muggsey Bogues?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Considering Chill's accomplishments against Dook you may want to refrain from mocking me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Bobby Hurley
Michael Jordan
Chris Corciani
Kenney Smith
Phil Ford
John Lucas
Johnny Dawkins
Juan Dixon
Mark Price
Kenny Anderson
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nate jonesacc:
apoc, the only 2 in that list who you could argue where better than JWill is now are Phil Ford and Bobby Hurley.<hr /></blockquote>Hello? Jordan anyone?

Jordan in college was not the Jordan of the 90s. He was a great player, but nothing out of the ordinary in college.

Childress was the tobacco road killer, but he could never have done it w/o Timmy!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nate jonesacc:
Jordan in college was not the Jordan of the 90s. He was a great player, but nothing out of the ordinary in college.

Childress was the tobacco road killer, but he could never have done it w/o Timmy!<hr /></blockquote>Jordan won the facking NPOY award!

Chill owned Duke.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nate jonesacc:
Jordan in college was not the Jordan of the 90s. He was a great player, but nothing out of the ordinary in college.

Childress was the tobacco road killer, but he could never have done it w/o Timmy!<hr /></blockquote>Is that right? How about the time Childress's freshman year, he scored 28 points at Alabama with one Latrell Sprewell guarding him. Or, his sophomore year when he hit six three pointers six straight times down the court against #1 ranked Carolina. Wake went on to give them a 26 point beating that day. Or, the time he and Rodney Rogers absolutely destroyed Duke in Durham his sophomore year. I could name more if you want me to. These all happened before Tim Duncan ever set foot on the Wake campus.

God, I wish all Wake players could have the kind of success Jordan had in college. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

And for the record, JWill is the best guard I have seen in college since Gary Payton was tearing it up at Oregon State.

I believe Mr Dixon has just bumped himself up that list a bit by leading his team to a national championship. He was absoloutely great in this tournament. Sort of what you would expect from a POY type player.

He will always be the greatest to me. No logic will ever sway me! <img border="0" alt="[NoNo]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Big Case:
i agree. dixon is like battier in that he's just one of those guys you dont wanna see standing in your way.<hr /></blockquote>The only difference being.. when dixon is standing in your way.. he usually ends up stealing the ball from you. Whereinas when Battier is in your way, he usually ended up flopping his ass down and looking at the ref to see if he drew the foul he was trying to draw.

Both acceptible basketball techniques.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Damn! I was hoping I was the reason that people have such a piss poor view of Maryland fans! <img border="0" alt="[bang]" title="" src="graemlins/banghead.gif" />

Big Case, I've always respected "most" of your posts but here I must concur on one thing... JWill is definitely not the BEST guard in ACC history.

He very well is one of the best, hands down. Also, he is a very classy guy that doesn't seem to talk a lot of trash, a la Julius Hodge, but lets his game do the talking for him, period.

In my mind, here is the list of best guards in ACC history:

1. Phil Ford
2. Bobby Hurley/Juan Dixon (tie)
3. John Lucas/Jason Williams (tie)
4. Johnny Dawkins
5. Mark Price
6. Randolph Childress, I actually knew him from
my old gym in Maryland
7. Walt Williams, played guard/forward so he
qualifies
8. Chris Corchiani/Rodney Monroe (tie)
9. Sam Cassell
10.Chris Whitney

Jordan was a guard in college too.

Shouldnt Cota be on that list somewhere?

BTW Hodge will be atleast as good as Jwilly by the end of his career.

The funny thing is, is that Juan is a team player,...thats why he never won NPOY...JWilly is a BALLHOG and won NPOY...Juan lead his team to the National Championship and won...Battier lead Duke to their's...

I'll give you this,...JWill is in the top 5 in guards...Battier is in the top 3 forwards...

The NBA won't take people who like to dribble and shoot and do everything by themselves...thats why Mateen Cleaves is riding the bench of the Kings...MJ is an exception...

I will be gone tonight from 5:00 to 1:30...im going to go to the Pistons-Kings game...i'll tell you if Cleaves plays...btw, im in Michigan on SB if you didn't know....