I hope everyone chooses Schmidt. While Prior is a better pitcher than schmidt, Schmidt has had a better season. Nomo and Brown have both been great, though not as good as Schmidt or prior. I know not everyone will pick schmidt but i hope nobody picks Ortiz, with his mere-mortal 3.71 ERA.
Webb was put in there for fun. While he shouldn't be Cy Young, he sure has saved the D-Backs this season.
I forgot about Livan Hernandez, i think he deserves some consideration.
You may have noticed that i left off Smoltz and Gagne. Cy Young means best pitcher as in not a one inning pitcher. Don't get me wrong, closers are really important, but, if a mediocre starting pitcher like Gagne can be the best closer, then can't guys like Schmidt and prior close? There should be an award for the best closer, if there isn't one already.
Definitly Ortiz. He leads baseball with 18 wins, and was a huge pickup after Kevin Millwood and Tom Glavine left, and with Maddux having a down year. I don't care what his ERA is. All I care about wins and losses.
Keep in mind though that I have more homer in me than The Simpsons. :D :laugh:
After Ortiz's latest crappy game against the Mets (a bad team, without jose reyes), i don't care how biased you are. There is no way you can sit there and tell me that ortiz should win the Cy Young. You might not be a firm believer in ERA, but what about innings/start? Ortiz goes about 6.1 innings/start. Also, he is third in run support, which is why he has won 18 games. Ortiz is the same pitcher he was with the Giants, and he definitely is not cy young caliber. I might be a little biased towards the Giants, but if Schmidt were having the overrated year ortiz is having i wouldn't say he was deserving of the cy young.
flyingswoosh Wrote:After Ortiz's latest crappy game against the Mets (a bad team, without jose reyes), i don't care how biased you are. There is no way you can sit there and tell me that ortiz should win the Cy Young. You might not be a firm believer in ERA, but what about innings/start? Ortiz goes about 6.1 innings/start. Also, he is third in run support, which is why he has won 18 games. Ortiz is the same pitcher he was with the Giants, and he definitely is not cy young caliber. I might be a little biased towards the Giants, but if Schmidt were having the overrated year ortiz is having i wouldn't say he was deserving of the cy young.
Oh don't tell me how bad Ortiz was today. Did you even watch the game? The Braves made 4 errors and Ortiz only gave up 3 ER's. Ortiz has carried the Braves staff all year. Without him we are the Colorado Rockies.
And I agree with you, Schmidt is having an unbelievable year. I wish the Braves still had him. But without Ortiz the Braves starting rotation is average at best. That's why he's my pick.
And Ortiz has 18 wins. I think Schmidt only has 13 or 14.
I'll say this: Head to head, Schmidt has been better than Ortiz this year. I'll give you that. But I give Ortiz the vote because he's been more important to the Braves than Schmidt has been to the Giants in my opinion. If you vote for Schmidt, then I have no problem with it whatsoever. I just don't see why you get so upset over my picking Ortiz.
Schmidt's having a great year.
Ortiz is having a great year.
I'll leave it at that.
i did watch the game. To tell you the truth, a cy young winner isn't supposed to give up a 2 run triple to jorge velandia, regardless of the errors, a 28 year old call-up. 5 innings 3 ER isn't very good. Ortiz has lost 3 of his last 4 games, and has thrown a combined 23 and 2/3 innings in those games. If Schmidt wins his next game he will be only 3 wins behind Ortiz.
As for Ortiz being more valuable than Schmidt, i disagree. Without Schmidt the Giants have (before Ponson) Jerome Williams, Foppert, Kirk Rueter (injured for many of his starts), Brower, and nobody. Without Ortiz the Braves have, Maddux, hampton, Ramirez, Reynolds (not sure when he came to the Braves), and nobody. That's better than the Giants. Also, the Braves have won many games solely on their hitting (Ortiz should know), the Giants don't have that luxury.
Lastly, thanks for taking Ortiz, we got half of Sidney Ponson (other half was Kurt Ainsworth) and Merkin Valdez (merkin the magician).
i forgot to add that Cy Young isn't who is more valuable to his team, but who is the best pitcher, regardless of team.
flyingswoosh Wrote:i forgot to add that Cy Young isn't who is more valuable to his team, but who is the best pitcher, regardless of team.
But you put Webb in simply because he saved the D-Backs season.
flyingswoosh Wrote:As for Ortiz being more valuable than Schmidt, i disagree. Without Schmidt the Giants have (before Ponson) Jerome Williams, Foppert, Kirk Rueter (injured for many of his starts), Brower, and nobody. Without Ortiz the Braves have, Maddux, hampton, Ramirez, Reynolds (not sure when he came to the Braves), and nobody. That's better than the Giants.
True. But remember, Maddux is having a down year, Hampton was terrible for the first 3 months and Reynolds aside from the occasional good start has been downright horrible.
flyingswoosh Wrote:i did watch the game. To tell you the truth, a cy young winner isn't supposed to give up a 2 run triple to jorge velandia, regardless of the errors, a 28 year old call-up.
Come on, I'm sure even Cy Young himself gave up a big hit to a rookie a time or two.
i also put webb in for fun, and because he's been awesome. Cy Young would make sure he didn't give up a triple to jorge velandia, and a HR to timo perez (who has all of 4 homers). Also, Webb was the only pitcher the d-backs had for a lot of the season, especially when batista was inconsistent. The Braves at least had seasoned veterans, the d-backs had bad starters who were also young.
Rueter has had an off year for most of the season and foppert's ERA is high.
flyingswoosh Wrote:Cy Young would make sure he didn't give up a triple to jorge velandia, and a HR to timo perez (who has all of 4 homers)
I don't know. Cy Young played in a different time. When triples and homers were freak occurances. My point is, every great pitcher makes a mistake or two. It just happens.
it doesn't matter if triples and homers were freak occurrences, Ortiz still gave up two big hits, to two crappy players. The Braves are fighting for the best record with the Giants and Ortiz loses to the Mets, and the Mets beat him with their crappy players not their good players, that's inexcusable.
flyingswoosh Wrote:it doesn't matter if triples and homers were freak occurrences, Ortiz still gave up two big hits, to two crappy players. The Braves are fighting for the best record with the Giants and Ortiz loses to the Mets, and the Mets beat him with their crappy players not their good players, that's inexcusable.
Good grief. Is Ortiz not entitiled to one bad game?
judging by his ERA i'd say he's had plenty of bad games. Look at his last 3 starts , they all suck.
flyingswoosh Wrote:judging by his ERA i'd say he's had plenty of bad games. Look at his last 3 starts , they all suck.
3 earned runs in 5 innings is not a bad start. Is it good? No, but it doesn't "suck". :rolleyes:
And a 3.75 ERA is very respectable. This isn't 1967.
How can you say that 5 innings 3 ER isn't a bad start? that's a 5.40 ERA, what kind of standards are you holding ortiz to?
flyingswoosh Wrote:How can you say that 5 innings 3 ER isn't a bad start? that's a 5.40 ERA, what kind of standards are you holding ortiz to?
Nobody can have a subpar day?
the point i'm trying to make is that he's had 3 subpar starts in a row.
And why is that such a big deal? If he were getting lit up it would be one thing.....
is a 6.48 ERA in his last 3 games, mean he's getting lit up? I think so. Six and a half ERA definitely means you're getting lit up.
Did you vote GDawgs? I voted for Ortiz and looks like I'm the only one so far.
Herd Fan 4-Life Wrote:Did you vote GDawgs? I voted for Ortiz and looks like I'm the only one so far.
Thanks Herd Fan. I guess I'm not the only one who picked Ortiz. I'll go vote now.
flyingswoosh Wrote:is a 6.48 ERA in his last 3 games, mean he's getting lit up? I think so. Six and a half ERA definitely means you're getting lit up.
No. I watched all 3 games. He did not get lit up.
Herd Fan can tell you about getting lit up.
What is your definition of getting lit up?
Can anyone tell me why they think Ortiz should win cy young, leaving out the reason that he has more wins than schmidt?
flyingswoosh Wrote:What is your definition of getting lit up?
Can anyone tell me why they think Ortiz should win cy young, leaving out the reason that he has more wins than schmidt?
1. Go look at Greg Maddux's first 3 starts. THAT is getting lit up.
2. I've given you plenty of reasons already. I don't know why you need anymore.
Can't you just see that I'm a big homer?
I understand that you're a homer, but you still need to be rational.
You gave me two reasons why you think Ortiz should be cy young. you said, the braves rotation would be lost without him and he has 4 more wins than schmidt. We already made it clear that cy young has nothing to do with MVP. I'm pretty much saying that ortiz isn't any better, just because the braves rotation would be lost without him. So now i'm saying take away the Wins' argument. Now, can you add any more reasons?
flyingswoosh Wrote:I understand that you're a homer, but you still need to be rational.
Homers are never rational.
YOU put Ortiz up as a Cy Young candidate. Not ME. YOU. If you didn't want we voting for Ortiz than why did you put him up there in the first place? The goal of a pitcher is to win. Ortiz has the most wins in the National League. To me that makes him the best pitcher.
I do respect your opinion flyingswoosh, but you have to let me have mine too.
Was that rational enough?
GDawgs88 Wrote:Herd Fan can tell you about getting lit up.
Sky rockets in flight, brother!!
And there goes ANOTHER one!! :wave: :wave:
Ortiz picked up another win tonight. He definately gets my vote.
Swoosh, chill out. If you don't want us to pick someone besides your beloved Giants, then don't put them in your poll.
You put them in there, we picked them. I don't have to give you a reason why I picked Ortiz. To me he's the best pitcher in the NL...and apparently GDawgs thinks so too. I don't want to go on and on and on and on trying to argue about something that you will NEVER let go.
Me thinks you soon could be the only contestant in your polls.
flyingswoosh Wrote:but you still need to be rational.
Pot----->meet kettle!
Lemme guess, you want a reason why I posted that, right? :stupid:
you're right the goal of a pitcher is to win, but Ortiz has a 3.82 ERA. no pitcher has ever won cy young with an ERA like that. He's getting 6.40 runs per game, that's the only reason he's winning.
Ortiz pitched poorly again last night, and walked another 5 guys, while again only throwing 6 innings. That doesn't seem like a cy young winner to me.
If you want to know why i put Ortiz on there, it's because, i copied the ESPN poll and then threw in Webb.
By the way, 10MAN, have you said anything that has to do with this thread, or have you just made fun of me?
GDawgs88 Wrote:YOU put Ortiz up as a Cy Young candidate. Not ME. YOU. If you didn't want we voting for Ortiz than why did you put him up there in the first place? The goal of a pitcher is to win. Ortiz has the most wins in the National League. To me that makes him the best pitcher.
I do respect your opinion flyingswoosh, but you have to let me have mine too.
Of course i'm letting you have your opinion, what do you think you've been posting this whole time. Also, Isn't the point of all of these message boards to argue, based on everyone's opinions?
flyingswoosh Wrote:you're right the goal of a pitcher is to win, but Ortiz has a 3.82 ERA. no pitcher has ever won cy young with an ERA like that. He's getting 6.40 runs per game, that's the only reason he's winning.
Ortiz pitched poorly again last night, and walked another 5 guys, while again only throwing 6 innings. That doesn't seem like a cy young winner to me.
If you want to know why i put Ortiz on there, it's because, i copied the ESPN poll and then threw in Webb.
Okay. Thanks for explaining why you put Ortiz in.
I know people will look at Ortiz's line yesterday (4 runs in 6 six innings) and say he looked mediocre. But all four of those runs came in the first inning. He shutout the Phillies for 5 innings after that, allowing the Braves to come back and win. So Ortiz pitched 5 strong innings, but the only one anybody will pay any attention to is the one bad inning. I think one of the marks of a great pitcher is being able to fall behind, but regroup and allow his team to come back. Just my humble old opinion.
flyingswoosh Wrote:Also, Isn't the point of all of these message boards to argue, based on everyone's opinions?
Of course. But I don't have a problem with you voting for Schmidt, so I don't see why you have a problem with me taking Ortiz.
IMO there are no standout Cy Young candidates in the National League and Ortiz (despite his Mediocre ERA) is probably the best candidate. (this coming from a guy who hates the braves)
Why the hatred for the Braves?
Terpy Wrote:IMO there are no standout Cy Young candidates in the National League and Ortiz (despite his Mediocre ERA) is probably the best candidate. (this coming from a guy who hates the braves)
I had this discussion with one of my friends. Is cy young based on how you compare with previous winners or the other leagues' pitchers? No, cy young is, the best pitcher in that league.
GDawgs88 Wrote:flyingswoosh Wrote:you're right the goal of a pitcher is to win, but Ortiz has a 3.82 ERA. no pitcher has ever won cy young with an ERA like that. He's getting 6.40 runs per game, that's the only reason he's winning.
Ortiz pitched poorly again last night, and walked another 5 guys, while again only throwing 6 innings. That doesn't seem like a cy young winner to me.
If you want to know why i put Ortiz on there, it's because, i copied the ESPN poll and then threw in Webb.
Okay. Thanks for explaining why you put Ortiz in.
I know people will look at Ortiz's line yesterday (4 runs in 6 six innings) and say he looked mediocre. But all four of those runs came in the first inning. He shutout the Phillies for 5 innings after that, allowing the Braves to come back and win. So Ortiz pitched 5 strong innings, but the only one anybody will pay any attention to is the one bad inning. I think one of the marks of a great pitcher is being able to fall behind, but regroup and allow his team to come back. Just my humble old opinion.
i understand that he did do well by keeping his team in the game, but you still can't take away the 4 runs, because they still count.
Also, through all of this, don't think that i dislike Ortiz, I think he's a very good pitcher.
Another crappy game for ortiz so far today. The Marlins put a 6 spot on the board in the 1st inning. How can you sit there and tell me that ortiz should win Cy Young, when his ERA is over 4.00.
I take it back. Smoltz gets my vote.
GDawgs88 Wrote:I take it back. Smoltz gets my vote.
ok, at least that's logical.
GDawgs88 Wrote:I take it back. Smoltz gets my vote.
Gagne has had a better year. He has a lower BAA, and a lower WHIP. Also, he has more saves and more K's.
I thought that ERA was such a big deal to you. Smoltz has 0.89 ERA. GAGne's is in the mid-1's. And Smoltz had two more saves before he went on the DL. And GAGne blew the All-Star game which should count for somthing IMO.
ERA is a big deal to me, but you said it wasn't a big deal to you, so i put the other stats. It shouldn't be Gagne's fault that smoltz went on the DL.
How can you say the all star game should count? Bonds went like 0 for 3 in that game, should that count on his average? Schmidt was great, should that game count for his stats? Sometimes pitchers don't throw their best pitches in that game because they want to be careful on their arms'. Also, you don't always have the competitive edge when it doesn't count on your stats or your teams' record.